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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906270 10/30/19 01:14 AM
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Quote
The truth is that nobody has been able to formulate a logical and sound definition of a hybrid digital grand piano except the detailed and thorough definition that I gave and that derives directly from the recent history of the hybrid digital grand pianos.


I propose the definition “a digital piano wherein the action is a copy of an acoustic piano with all its pieces : wippen, escapement button, jack, repetition lever...”

This definition has the advantage that it has a consensus among many people (not all obviously), which eases the communication. At Nebout-Hamm (a French piano shop), the web site uses the term “quasi-hybrid” to qualify Casio GP500. This illustrates that GP500 is not really in the same segment as N1X or NV10.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/30/19 01:15 AM.

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Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2906279 10/30/19 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover

Finally, I gave my own (better written, more accurately at least) definition of a hybrid digital grand piano. Here is it is:
UPDATED DEFINITION of a hybrid digital grand piano: What is a hybrid digital grand piano? It is first of all a digital piano that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of an acoustic grand piano.
In summary, a hybrid digital grand piano is formed of two parts:
---First, it is a digital piano where the piano sound is produced digitally using piano sound samples and/or modeled piano sounds.
---Second, it has a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch that always has the fundamental feature of having the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of an acoustic grand piano.
The result of this hybrid digital grand piano? It has the advantages of a digital piano (no tuning, various sounds available, use of headphones, recording, various temperaments, and many more features) with the BIG advantage of an acoustic grand piano by also having a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch. In this respect, the hybrid digital grand piano fulfills fully the original main goal of creating a hybrid digital grand piano that is not only a digital piano with many of its advantages but it nevertheless also has A GRAND PIANO KEYBOARD ACTION AND TOUCH that is very close to the one found on an acoustic grand piano.




Again, Casio's "hybrid" action is fundamentally different from a grand action. It doesn't fit your definition of a hybrid. Only Yamaha and Kawai use grand actions in their hybrids.


Last edited by johnstaf; 10/30/19 02:23 AM.
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906312 10/30/19 05:38 AM
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@johnstaf : you are true, on a grand piano, the hammer goes upward and bounces at the strings because the jack has been disengaged when hit by the escapement button. On a Casio, the hammer goes upward too, but there is no escapement then it can’t goes back until you release the key.

Then we have two different mechanical movements, the Casio GP500 doesn’t fit the MikePianoLover’s definition.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906324 10/30/19 06:52 AM
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Interesting about the Casio GP pianos. One of the sites selling acoustics and DPs that I often look at has a 'hybrid' category and although they sell the Casio GPs they aren't included in it:
http://www.euroconcert.fr/178-pianos-hybrides
I wonder if they have a 'definition.'
Btw - the fact that it isn't categorized that as a hybrid wouldn't put me off buying one, but I thought I'd mention it out of interest, not that it is 'evidence'....


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906328 10/30/19 07:10 AM
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Indeed. I don't think it's relevant if you like the action.

Re: Hybrids?
johnstaf #2906472 10/30/19 02:06 PM
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To johnstaf and to Frederic L:
A grand piano keyboard action and touch is always compared to an upright piano keyboard action and touch and the comparison is always made with respect to the movement of the hammers of these 2 piano keyboard actions simply because that is, in fact, the critical feature that is highly correlated to the touch of the keyboard action. However, the piano keyboard action of a grand piano is very complex and it has many parts. But then ...

You do not seem to be fully aware how very different the grand piano keyboard action and touch on the Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) really is compared to the grand piano keyboard action and touch of an acoustic Yamaha grand piano! I once saw a picture on one on the forums threads and you would have been the first one to say that it is NOT at all a grand piano keyboard action of a normal acoustic grand piano.
Moreover, you also do not seem to understand that, according to owners of these Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X), the touch of these Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) is quite different than the touch of an acoustic Yamaha grand piano.
More, same for the escapement, it is, according to owners of these Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) who documented their experience on various forums, it is next to non-existent and it is certainly not comparable in any way to the escapement that you have on a normal acoustic Yamaha grand piano, not even near!! In fact, several complained about this problem of having an escapement that is next to non-existent!!

More, now let us talk about the Kawai grand piano action that is a whole story in itself. For the purists of the grand piano action and touch, you would be shocked if you would see how the Kawai grand piano keyboard action truly is! It has been completely redesigned from scratch and it now includes ABS parts and many parts of a normal grand piano action are not even present on this Kawai grand piano action that is a completely redesigned grand piano keyboard action. You purists of the grand piano keyboard action and touch, you would be the first one to say that the Kawai keyboard piano action is not a normal grand piano keyboard action and even the touch is quite different. See the following video to understand what I am talking about "Piano Action: Kawai Millenium III ABS-Carbon Piano Action - YouTube" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O7_MtFbnWI
Personally, I am a proponent of improvements for the piano and therefore I am a big fan of what Kawai did for their pianos and, in particular, for their grand piano keyboard piano action and touch as exemplified with the Kawai Millenium III ABS-Carbon Piano Action. BUT many purists of the normal grand piano keyboard action and touch consider very negatively the redesigned Kawai keyboard action and touch.
Now, that is not all. Again, pictures shown by owners of the Kawai Novus NV10 show that the Kawai grand piano action that they have on their Kawai Novus NV10 is not the same than the Kawai Millenium III ABS-Carbon Piano Action that Kawai uses on the normal Kawai acoustic grand pianos; there are indeed quite a few big differences.
Again, the Kawai Millenium III ABS-Carbon Piano Action is a completely different keyboard piano action and touch than a normal grand piano keyboard action and touch, as the modifications made by Kawai to the normal grand piano action and touch are very significant and involve many parts of the original keyboard action and touch of a normal acoustic grand piano.

What is very interesting and that is often completely missed by many is that what really matters in a grand piano keyboard action and touch in order to get a keyboard action and touch similar to one of an acoustic grand piano is mainly to have "the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of an acoustic grand piano". Why? Because it is connected to pure physics and the way kinetic energy is involved when you have present in a hybrid grand piano action "the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of an acoustic grand piano." Hence, changing various parts of a grand piano keyboard action will not dramatically change the touch of hybrid digital keyboard action and touch. The result?
You can significantly modify the design of the hybrid digital grand piano action to be very different in various ways than the one from an acoustic grand piano and yet you will nevertheless be able to mimic a very good touch that is similar (very close) to the touch of an acoustic grand piano action. That is what Kawai demonstrated with their Kawai Millenium III ABS-Carbon Piano Action. That is also what Yamaha demonstrated with their keyboard action and touch that is in their Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) and that is significantly very different than the one in their acoustic Yamaha grand pianos.
AND, last but not the least, that is also exactly what Casio demonstrated with their Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) despite the fact that, like the Kawai keyboard action used in the Kawai Novus NV10, Casio used a completely redesigned keyboard action and touch. They also intentionally got rid of the escapement in order to improve the speed at which you can play the keys on their keyboard.

Interestingly, when you see a picture of the cutout of the Casio digital grand piano keyboard action that is present in the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310), you cannot help notice the similarities (plastic parts like the Kawai keyboard action) with the Kawai Millenium III ABS-Carbon Piano Action even though the Kawai keyboard action and touch is much more refined and better than what is provided in the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310).

More, concert pianists who played on the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310), they all indicated that the touch of the keyboard action on the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) was very similar and close to the real one of an acoustic grand piano. They concluded that it would be an excellent tool to practice the piano for both professional and amateur pianists, as their piano techniques would not be affected in any way when they play from one of the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) to a real acoustic grand piano keyboard.

That is the beauty and the magic of these hybrid digital grand piano keyboards for Yamaha, Kawai, and Casio; they simply do not need at all to be exactly similar to a real acoustic grand piano keyboard in order to produce a very good and very close approximation of the feeling of touch that you have when you play on a real acoustic grand piano keyboard! That is the magic related to these hybrid digital grand pianos!


All these points above, I assume (wrongly) that you knew them, that you were aware of them. My mistake, it is obviously not the case at all for most of you, if not for all of you.

To conclude, all these reasons that I have explained just above are the very reasons why a hybrid digital grand piano is a very good and sound approximation of the feeling and touch of a real acoustic grand piano keyboard.
And, more importantly, all these reasons also explain why the keyboard action of these hybrid digital grand pianos can be quite different than the one from a real acoustic grand piano and, providing it applies the fundamental feature of having "the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano", the keyboard action and touch of a hybrid digital grand piano will NEVERTHELESS be able to give a very good and very close approximation of the feeling and touch that you experience when you use a real acoustic grand piano keyboard action. That is the magic produced by these hybrid digital grand pianos.
And that is the reason why the naysayers are wrong when they claim that the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) would not be hybrid digital grand pianos when they are fully hybrid digital grand pianos for all these reasons explained above.






Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/30/19 02:14 PM.
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906476 10/30/19 02:14 PM
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Mike, once again your post is peppered with inaccuracies.

The Yamaha Avant Grand and Kawai Novus have exactly the same action as a grand piano except for the hammer. Instead of felt covered walnut or mahogany hammers they use weighted rods to simulate the mass of the hammers.

The Casios are entirely different.

What's the deal with your level of motivation here? Are you a Casio dealer? A Casio owner? Why are you so desperate for these Casio pianos to be regarded as hybrids? If you could explain why (in blue text if you really want) we might all begin to understand why you feel so strongly about this issue.


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Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2906481 10/30/19 02:21 PM
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"Moreover, you also do not seem to understand that, according to owners of these Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X), the touch of these Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) is quite different than the touch of an acoustic Yamaha grand piano."

I own an N3 and before that I owned the GranTouch. They are grand actions, actions from a grand piano that is around 5'10".

I had the action on my GranTouch worked on to have a deeper key dip and I've had the action of my N3 regulated a few years ago. I've played nine foot Yamaha grands that had virtually no resistance which would have been great for performance but not as a practice piano.

Don't include me in your blanket statement about those who own a hybrid piano and the touch being different than an acoustic piano. They are extremely similar.

I can't be bothered to read all these posts because I'm not interested in ... wasting my time. I spend enough time online as it is and a discussion such as this is not interesting for me.

Angels dancing on pin heads? smile


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906484 10/30/19 02:38 PM
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This is getting ridiculous. I know exactly how the Kawai action is. I know what a grand feels like. I know what an AvantGrand feels like.

Maybe this is all new to you, but please don't assume that people here aren't well versed in piano actions of all types.

Everyone who knows anything about pianos knows that Kawai use ABS parts.
Kawai and Yamaha use grand actions.
Casio don't.

There's nothing wrong with not using a grand action, but again ONLY Yamaha and Kawai make hybrid actions according to YOUR definition of hybrid.

The Casio action doesn't feel exactly the same as a grand. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's just the way it is.

Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906486 10/30/19 02:42 PM
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Maybe the Mike guy is trolling. Presents falsehoods as facts. He ignores the arguments and corrections presented, in this thread and the GP300/400 thread. Casio GPs are not hybrids by the de-facto marketplace definitions to date, but they are for Mike by his own definition, that’s fine, more fool him. Let’s no longer feed the troll.

Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906487 10/30/19 02:46 PM
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Mike, I’m also a N1X owner and I don’t find its action different than the Yamaha grands I’ve tried.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/30/19 02:54 PM.

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Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2906492 10/30/19 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover

You do not seem to be fully aware how very different the grand piano keyboard action and touch on the Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) really is compared to the grand piano keyboard action and touch of an acoustic Yamaha grand piano! I once saw a picture on one on the forums threads...


That's it, I'm out. Masterfully played, Mike. This really made my day!


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906499 10/30/19 03:31 PM
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I'll call the Casio a hybrid when Bechstein makes a grand piano using the same action.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906503 10/30/19 03:49 PM
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I was refraining myself from posting but I couldn't help it:
TL;DR, especially MPL's posts. But my impression is:
[Linked Image]

Funny how a polemical thread like this does not derail into OT. tired


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Re: Hybrids?
EVC2017 #2906510 10/30/19 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by EVC2017
I was refraining myself from posting but I couldn't help it:
TL;DR, especially MPL's posts. But my impression is:

Funny how a polemical thread like this does not derail into OT. tired

Because us OT'ers have run for the hills?


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Re: Hybrids?
Tyrone Slothrop #2906516 10/30/19 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Because us OT'ers have run for the hills?


I like trains.

Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906532 10/30/19 05:14 PM
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OT is for friends.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906533 10/30/19 05:22 PM
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CG, just wondering if you know anything about a grand piano action? Ever see a real one? 🙃



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Re: Hybrids?
johnstaf #2906535 10/30/19 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Because us OT'ers have run for the hills?


I like trains.

Me too


regards
Pete
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906539 10/30/19 05:32 PM
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Back to the topic please... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_train wink

I may try to discuss with MikePianoLover when he will point me where the repetition lever and the jack of the Casio are.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/30/19 05:38 PM.

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