2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
39 members (DionG, Brahms4, David B, AZNpiano, Beowulf, Anglagard44, earlofmar, 7 invisible), 438 guests, and 357 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
#2906090 10/29/19 03:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 731
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 731
They all cheat.

Argerich cheated in the repeated descending chords section of Prokofiev's toccata. Brendel cheated a whole passage of Schubert's Wanderer. My ex gf cheated on me with a childhood friend of hers.

So - if one encounters a passage of such outstanding difficulty, that only a specifically shaped hand could execute it properly, and months of practice can be spent on it with no result, shouldn't one stop hacking away at it and simply play a simpler version, sparing so much unnecessary stress? (given, of course, that the changed version wouldn't affect the musical structure.)

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906093 10/29/19 03:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 308
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 308
Why, of course!

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906216 10/29/19 09:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 233
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 233
No I would never play a simpler version unless the composer explicitly provided an easier "ossia" version. Keep practicing, it takes time but if done right those unsolvable passages become doable.

I do always look for a way to redistribute notes between the hands or redistribute crossovers. Pianists with small hands like me often cannot play the score as the composer suggested. Redistribution isn't cheating, it's adapting the score to my physical span.


At home avoiding the virus.
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906219 10/29/19 09:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,224
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,224
There's cheating and there's cheating.

For some people, playing the opening octaves of Op.111 with two hands is cheating. For others, it's idiotic to risk a fluffed note in the crucial opening of a massive work.

For some people, leaving out a few notes in Rach 3 is fine if your hands are small. No-one will notice (and no-one has noticed). For others, it's sacrilege.....even though Horowitz himself simplified Rach's easier cadenza (and it's very noticeable whistle).

You pays your money and you takes your choice.....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906227 10/29/19 09:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,946
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,946
My teacher had a few lessons with Horowitz who admitted he cheated and shared how. If you can do it artfully, why not?


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906228 10/29/19 09:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
N
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
It's like cancelling your concerts, you either feel incredibly guilty, or you don't and life goes on.


Chopin Op. 48, No. 1, Op. 24
Czerny Variation on a theme by Rode
Chopin Bolero
Schumann Piano Concerto / Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 5

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
newport #2906231 10/29/19 10:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,946
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,946
Originally Posted by newport
It's like cancelling your concerts, you either feel incredibly guilty, or you don't and life goes on.
I don't really agree with you. Cancelling a concert is a black and white, on/off issue. You play or your don't play; you are disappointing your audience and some (most?) might feel guilty about it. Changing or leaving out a few notes to facilitate the flow of the music and preserve its meaning, this is artistry. It is nothing to feel guilty about. If it's done well, the listener might not even notice because they have gotten caught up in the music. IMO, the mission of a musician isn't to be a mechanic; it is to move and involve the listener.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
Fidel #2906249 10/29/19 11:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,763
O
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,763
Originally Posted by Fidel
No I would never play a simpler version unless the composer explicitly provided an easier "ossia" version. Keep practicing, it takes time but if done right those unsolvable passages become doable.


I guess us amateurs have the luxury to think this way...when you make a living from performing it's different.

But maybe it is also good to remind ourselves why we play: To reproduce notes perfectly or to create music for the listeners to enjoy. If it's the latter, it makes little sense to spend months agonizing over a few notes that no-one else will notice...
I used to obsess over things too, but I have learned: When I practice I strive for perfection, but if I have to perform a piece I don't care if I need to make changes as long as it works musically.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906251 10/29/19 11:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,094
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,094
What some people considered cheating isn't exactly what it implies. In music there are arrangements of various pieces. When someone's level of playing is beginner or lower intermediate, you don't expect him/her to get into a Beethoven Sonata right away. I got a book at home Faber "Adult Piano Adventure Classics 2". The book has easy arrangements of Classical favorites including opera themes & symphonies. Playing an easy arrangement of a Chopin Nocturne with the main melody without the intro & difficult runs in between gets you into a Chopin piece. When you're ready to play the full version, you can get the score later.

I worked on a Schubert Serenade from the Faber book in 3 pages with large print. When I'm ready, I'll download the full version.

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
outo #2906256 10/30/19 12:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,946
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,946
Originally Posted by outo

But maybe it is also good to remind ourselves why we play: To reproduce notes perfectly or to create music for the listeners to enjoy. If it's the latter, it makes little sense to spend months agonizing over a few notes that no-one else will notice...
I used to obsess over things too, but I have learned: When I practice I strive for perfection, but if I have to perform a piece I don't care if I need to make changes as long as it works musically.

Exactly my point.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
thepianoplayer416 #2906259 10/30/19 12:15 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,888
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,888
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
[...]
I worked on a Schubert Serenade from the Faber book in 3 pages with large print. When I'm ready, I'll download the full version.


... and then you'll discover that it is not a piano piece at all, but that the original is a German Lied for voice and piano. That said, there are arrangements - all sorts of them at many levels of difficulty - for piano solo.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906288 10/30/19 04:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,060
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,060
[Linked Image]


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
Animisha #2906289 10/30/19 04:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 382
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by Animisha
[Linked Image]


Lol. LOVE it!


TH
[Linked Image]
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906290 10/30/19 04:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,904
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,904
Haha!

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906301 10/30/19 05:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 602
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 602
Me too - I cheat. If I really want to play something and some passages are too difficult, then I cheat. I usually 'fix' things in subsequent playings, but on the other hand, if it's just too difficult (some Rachmaninov, nice tune, impossible for my fingers) then the cheat stays. I reckon it's a skill in itself smile


regards
Pete
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906360 10/30/19 09:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,060
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,060
Originally Posted by NervousWreck123
So - if one encounters a passage of such outstanding difficulty, that only a specifically shaped hand could execute it properly, and months of practice can be spent on it with no result, shouldn't one stop hacking away at it and simply play a simpler version, sparing so much unnecessary stress? (given, of course, that the changed version wouldn't affect the musical structure.)

I think as an amateur pianists, you can do what you feel like. If you want to play a certain piece, and there are a few passages that are too difficult, by all means simplify! If you'll perform, you can write in the program

Masterpiece by Mastercomposer
Arr: NervousWreck123


That will look good! smile


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
Animisha #2906362 10/30/19 09:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 731
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 731
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by NervousWreck123
So - if one encounters a passage of such outstanding difficulty, that only a specifically shaped hand could execute it properly, and months of practice can be spent on it with no result, shouldn't one stop hacking away at it and simply play a simpler version, sparing so much unnecessary stress? (given, of course, that the changed version wouldn't affect the musical structure.)

I think as an amateur pianists, you can do what you feel like. If you want to play a certain piece, and there are a few passages that are too difficult, by all means simplify! If you'll perform, you can write in the program

Masterpiece by Mastercomposer
Arr: NervousWreck123


That will look good! smile


Never been roasted quite like that on this forum; that's refreshing

P.S. never quite been an amateur pianist

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906399 10/30/19 11:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 159
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 159
Here's the thing: does the cheating still convey the composer's intent or enhance the meaning of the work?

Most everybody cheats the rapid double note runs at the end of Prokofiev's 3rd Piano Concerto; some people just play glissandi with their thumbs, others use their fist to roll right through. Neither is what Prokofiev wrote but the effect is similar and thus the cheating isn't a big deal.

Many pianists also cheat on the octave glissandos in pieces like Beethoven's Op.53 by separating between the hands. I feel this is justified as well because the effect and difficulty of octave glissandi changes with each piano. Octave glissandi may be painful or even impossible to execute on pianos with heavy actions; in Beethoven's time virtually every piano was built with a very light action so this was not an issue. So that's another place where cheating seems to be OK.

Conversely, I recently had a discussion with somebody who was splitting some of the leaps in La Campanella between the hands, saying that this was more "efficient". Liszt wrote La Campanella as a study on leaps, does it not defeat the purpose of learning the etude if you make the leaps easier?

Similar situations appear in the openings of Beethoven's Op.106 and Op.111. A lot of the virtuosic effect is lost when you split these jumps between the hands.


Last edited by achoo42; 10/30/19 11:25 AM.

Schumann is the mann.
Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906444 10/30/19 01:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,904
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,904
I think it's becoming more common to play gliss in the Waldstein. I don't suppose it's cheating to play normal octaves, as the sound is really obvious, and Beethoven didn't actually write gliss. Maybe he meant conventional octaves at impossible speed...

Re: NervousWreck's Nervous Thought of the Day: Cheating
CianistAndPomposer #2906447 10/30/19 01:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 189
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 189
It's just music, not some sort of sacred divinity thing.

The way some people worships the written notes is to me so much anti artistic as those who find acceptable and natural that some painted works are valued millions of $

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Well! How's the playlist comin' long, then? :)
by peterws - 05/31/20 01:39 AM
Difference between n1 and n1x
by lopmax - 05/31/20 01:17 AM
A Philadelphia piano store was looted tonight
by Rich Galassini - 05/30/20 11:19 PM
Piano By Jonny
by 20/20 Vision - 05/30/20 06:59 PM
Kawai ES-110 Piano Samples
by Skyscrapersax - 05/30/20 06:12 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics199,297
Posts2,964,131
Members97,243
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4