2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
41 members (AndrewJCW, Beowulf, Almar, Derek Mc, 1957, David Boyce, Boboulus, crazyRyoga, 10 invisible), 538 guests, and 528 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Hybrids?
Frédéric L #2905416 10/28/19 05:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Without escapement, an action doesn’t need to be armed again to replay a note. The repetition is only limited by where the sensor are placed.

With an escapement, (like in upright), we have to arm the escapement again before the next note, this explains the repetition lever (or double escapement) which is an improvement of the action which arm the escapement faster.

Not sure I agree with what you imply (or maybe I didn't understand it).

1. On a digital piano the hammer hits the rail (or whatever it hits) and has to stop there. However it has a considerable energy and that needs to be cushioned (which is why for instance Kawai GF pianos feel so mushy) or you will experience that energy as a shock in your fingers. This is not only unnatural but since the hammer is stopping at the cushion, in order for you to re-strike it again you have to start releasing the key and wait for the hammer to start moving backwards which creates an inertia and then when you decide to re-strike, you need to overcome that movement inertia. That's awkward and will create unnecessary weight that you have to overcome even if you have to re-strike pianissimo and will both slow you down, as well as make it harder to strike precisely. Once again, you are re-striking a hammer that moves backwards, rather than one which is motionless as on a real grand (of course on a real grand that will happen too if you release the key enough for the hammer to be reengaged and continue releasing but for softer re-strikes it helps a lot).

2. Furthermore, on an acoustic piano you have the backchecks. They stop the rebound by expanding laterally, instead of having hammer bouncing back and forth. This helps immensely in having a consistent velocity of re-strikes and especially playing consistent trills which I can confirm. In contrast, on a digital piano, playing trills will create a "gap" for the hammer - between the key and the stop rail - which the hammer will use to bounce back and forth freely and that would eventually accelerate it more than is wanted, resulting in trills that are in an unexpected and sudden crescendo. Again, I can confirm that.

3. On current digital pianos, there are triple sensors that are distanced apart and velocity is measured between the second and third sensor which means that the key still needs to be released enough in order to re-strike it.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/28/19 05:33 AM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: Hybrids?
MacMacMac #2905418 10/28/19 05:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You guys are talking about the value and purpose of escapement in two different settings:
1. Piano with a grand action, and with escapement
2. Piano without a grand action, and without escapement (the Casio)

A meaningful comparison would be:
2. Piano without a grand action, and without escapement (the Casio)
3. Piano without a grand action, and with escapement (not the Casio)


You can't have a grand piano action without escapement.

Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905421 10/28/19 05:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
Yes, on a digital piano (excepted AvantGrand and Novus), you have to wait for the key to be higher which means the hammer come back. When there is an escapement, you have to wait for the hammer to be reengaged : the hammer is already back at the backcheck.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Hybrids?
Colin Miles #2905422 10/28/19 05:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I found the 'ask the pianist' video less and less convincing as it went on, especially when it got to the Debussy at the end. Isn't this all 'just' a matter of technique whether you are playing digital or acoustic? That is a rhetorical question to myself! Will have to investigate further on the various pianos.


The opening of Ondine goes from being incredibly difficult (with appropriate speed and softness) to fairly straightforward when played on a grand (that's well regulated) if the assistance of the escapement is used.

It is most useful for very fast music, such as the fast passagework that is very common in Ravel.

It can also create a different sound, as the time between the hammer strike and the damper falling back on the string is shorter.

Re: Hybrids?
Frédéric L #2905424 10/28/19 05:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Yes, on a digital piano (excepted AvantGrand and Novus), you have to wait for the key to be higher which means the hammer come back. When there is an escapement, you have to wait for the hammer to be reengaged : the hammer is already back at the backcheck.

Exactly. The difference being that on the grand piano the jack will slide under the motionless hammer at that point. Whereas on the digital piano the heavy hammer will be pushing the key backwards until that point and you will have to apply higher force at that point to overcome that momentum.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Hybrids?
CyberGene #2905428 10/28/19 05:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by CyberGene

That's awkward and will create unnecessary weight that you have to overcome even if you have to re-strike pianissimo and will both slow you down, as well as make it harder to strike precisely. Once again, you are re-striking a hammer that moves backwards, rather than one which is motionless as on a real grand (of course on a real grand that will happen too if you release the key enough for the hammer to be reengaged and continue releasing but for softer re-strikes it helps a lot).


Yep. I remember when I got my piano, the backchecks didn't really work very well. There's nothing as weird as the sensation of playing trills without backchecks. It's the piano equivalent of running in mud!

Re: Hybrids?
EssBrace #2905714 10/28/19 03:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
EssBrace, you say:
--------------------------------------------
I'm guessing you don't get out much Mike?

Your post is riddled with inaccuracies. And it becomes crystal clear that your position is one that will redefine anything just so long as it allows you to classify the Casio GP pianos in whatever way suits your fragile ego. They are hybrids just because you say so.

The Casios have actions no more like a real grand piano than any of the CA series Kawais (or wooden keyed Kawai MP stage pianos). And let's not forget the ancient Yamaha Clavinova CLP990 from the 1990s. By your definition they are also hybrids.
--------------------------------------------


Where on earth would there be supposed inaccuracies in what I wrote?!! Unfortunately, you have an agenda of your own, EssBrace, and this agenda is that you cannot accept that the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) are indeed as hybrid as the Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) are or as the Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano (only one hybrid digital grand piano) is!!! Get over it, no need for more tantrums!!
At least according to my definition of a hybrid digital grand piano that derives directly from the history of these hybrid digital grand pianos and, more importantly, from the original main goal of these hybrid digital grand pianos (to endow digital pianos with a keyboard action and touch that very close to the one on a grand piano).

Again, for you especially EssBrace, not a single of the 3 main manufacturers of hybrid digital grand pianos have an keyboard action and touch that is exactly like the one found on an acoustic grand piano and it would be impossible to have because of the fact that the piano sound is produced digitally and there are no strings used on these hybrid digital grand pianos.

By the way, the Yamaha Clavinova CLP990 does not have a keyboard action and touch that meets the definition that I gave of a hybrid digital grand piano!!

Unfortunately, it is not the first time that you made completely false comments on what I wrote! If you have constructive comments to make on what I write, fine; otherwise, the kind of dishonest comments that you make are childish, to say the least!!


Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/28/19 04:04 PM.
Re: Hybrids?
Kawai James #2905718 10/28/19 04:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
To Kawai James.

To refute my definition of a hybrid digital grand piano, all you can say is:
"Writing text in blue does not validate its content."!!!
Disappointing, to say the least!

If you have meaningful "content" to add to refute what I say, please bring on this content. I challenge you or anybody to refute with sound reasons the definition that I gave of a hybrid digital grand piano.

BUT I do understand you well, you do not want to classify the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) as hybrid digital grand pianos considering the fact that they cost significantly more than half the price of the Kawai Novus NV10, the only hybrid digital grand piano on offer by Kawai!!
Indeed, these the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) are serious competition for both the Kawai Novus NV10 and the Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X).

Well, now your comment does make sense.

Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/28/19 04:23 PM.
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905725 10/28/19 04:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,933
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,933
It's time to cool off.

I think EssBrace was harsh in his criticism, but correct on his points.
You seem very long-winded and the read is tiresome.

I think some time off is warranted.

Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2905729 10/28/19 04:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,738
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,738
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover

Indeed, these the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) are serious competition for both the Kawai Novus NV10 and the Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X).

Not if, as already stated in this thread, you seek an authentic piano action (with jack, escapement , etc).

Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905737 10/28/19 05:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
After having tried N1/N3 and a GP500 I can say that the GP500 won’t prevent some pianists to buy the N1X... the felling is far different.

I would very like to agree with you : I would have a far less expensive digital piano in my to-buy-list.

You can insist that the Casio is hybrid (it is a Casio/Bechstein digital piano!), but you have to admit Casio did something different than Yamaha with its AvantGrand (and GranTouch). Yamaha has copied a grand action (jack, escapement, repetition lever...) and Casio has a simplified action. If I claim that historically Yamaha did create “hybrids” with hammers on the top of wooden keys with an upward trajectory (which is true), this would include CLP990 and CA98.... Then I can’t be convinced by an “historical” definition which can be twisted as we want to include what we want.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/28/19 05:20 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905771 10/28/19 06:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,933
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,933
I think we can settle this once and for all ...

Here's a true high bride:
https://i.imgur.com/nuzeHvg.jpg

Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2905775 10/28/19 06:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,140
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,140
Hello Mike,

Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
By the way, the Yamaha Clavinova CLP990 does not have a keyboard action and touch that meets the definition that I gave of a hybrid digital grand piano!


May I ask if you have played the CLP-990?
This instrument's keyboard action was very similar to that of Kawai's wooden key actions of the same period. Kawai has continued to revise and improve this action design over subsequent decades, while Yamaha pursued a different action design.

Regarding the discussion as to what constitutes a "hybrid piano", you're obviously free to define these various instruments as you wish. However, as someone who works in this industry, I can tell you that the AvantGrand and Novus instruments are currently the only products occupying this segment of the market.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906126 10/29/19 03:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
To Kawai James.

It is interesting to read your points of view.

*Sparing the people from reading a long dissertation*




Last edited by Ken Knapp; 10/29/19 04:37 PM. Reason: Getting rid of unkind words and such.
Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2906139 10/29/19 04:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,700
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,700
MikePianoLover,

I think you need to speak more kindly to others. Kawai James is very kind to others and helpful. I think you could learn from his example. This is your one and only warning. To quote a vice president where I used to work, "We can change the people, or we can change the people."


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906146 10/29/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,946
Quote
"Regarding the discussion as to what constitutes a "hybrid piano", you're obviously free to define these various instruments as you wish. However, as someone who works in this industry, I can tell you that the AvantGrand and Novus instruments are currently the only products occupying this segment of the market."

To state such a blatantly false point of view, you can only be


Ok, according to you either :

Kawai James is wrong when saying you are free to define various instruments as you wish

OR

There are other instruments occupying the segment of digital pianos where the action is a copy of an acoustic grand (escapement button, jack, repetition lever, etc).

What should I conclude ? Which other instruments are you thinking about ?

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/29/19 04:50 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906155 10/29/19 05:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,150
Thank you Ken for returning us to regular order here.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2906193 10/29/19 07:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,140
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,140
I'm late to the party, what did I miss? wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Hybrids?
Kawai James #2906206 10/29/19 07:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm late to the party, what did I miss? wink

Let e summarize for you: "Casio GPs are the bomb! 🤟"


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Hybrids?
Ken Knapp #2906238 10/29/19 09:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 54
To Ken Knapp.
Sorry, Ken, I had no intention of being unkind to Kawai James in any way. Maybe my wording was not the best I could write. Renember Ken, to be honest and frank when you speak to someone is not being unkind, it is simply being honest and frank. And it is very often easy to misinterpret a statement as being unkind when it was not meant to be unkind in any way from the person who wrote it.

Kawai James said to me:
"Regarding the discussion as to what constitutes a "hybrid piano", you're obviously free to define these various instruments as you wish. However, as someone who works in this industry, I can tell you that the AvantGrand and Novus instruments are currently the only products occupying this segment of the market."
Kawai James is entitled to his point of view but I am entitled to tell him what I think about this statement.
I clearly explained that I disagree to Kawai James's statement that is stated just above. I hope that to say that is not, in any way, interpreted as being unkind to Kawai James. And I clearly explained why I disagree with Kawai James's statement. It all comes down to my definition of what a hybrid digital grand piano is.

I also proposed Kawai James to give me his own definition of what a hybrid digital grand piano is for him because he indicates that he does not consider that the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) are hybrid digital grand pianos, as he considers only that the Yamaha AvantGrand and the Kawai Novus NV10 are being hybrid digital grand pianos.

Finally, I gave my own (better written, more accurately at least) definition of a hybrid digital grand piano. Here is it is:
UPDATED DEFINITION of a hybrid digital grand piano: What is a hybrid digital grand piano? It is first of all a digital piano that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of an acoustic grand piano.
In summary, a hybrid digital grand piano is formed of two parts:
---First, it is a digital piano where the piano sound is produced digitally using piano sound samples and/or modeled piano sounds.
---Second, it has a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch that always has the fundamental feature of having the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of an acoustic grand piano.
The result of this hybrid digital grand piano? It has the advantages of a digital piano (no tuning, various sounds available, use of headphones, recording, various temperaments, and many more features) with the BIG advantage of an acoustic grand piano by also having a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch. In this respect, the hybrid digital grand piano fulfills fully the original main goal of creating a hybrid digital grand piano that is not only a digital piano with many of its advantages but it nevertheless also has A GRAND PIANO KEYBOARD ACTION AND TOUCH that is very close to the one found on an acoustic grand piano.


This definition is applicable not only to the Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X) and to the Kawai Novus NV10 but, in exactly the same way, it is also applicable to the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310).
If Kawai James disagrees with me on this matter, it would be interesting to hear from him if he wants so that he could explain me why he disagrees with me (and in particular on my definition) and on what definition of a hybrid digital grand piano he supports his disagreement with me? That would be an interesting discussion.

The truth is that nobody has been able to formulate a logical and sound definition of a hybrid digital grand piano except the detailed and thorough definition that I gave and that derives directly from the recent history of the hybrid digital grand pianos. Feel free to tell me if my definition is not accurate in any way for you.

If we could not discuss openly on such simple matters and if I could not give my own point of view about a statement made to me by Kawai James, then it would be very disappointing.

Peace to all.

Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/29/19 09:33 PM.
Page 4 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
iPad pro (2020) MIDI Output not consistent
by Almar - 01/18/21 05:33 AM
used Kawai RX-1 or new Kawai GL-30?
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/18/21 05:23 AM
Roland F701 vs FP-90X (?)
by Mulberg - 01/18/21 02:17 AM
Garritan CFX, Sustain Release Samples ???
by DigitalMusicProduc - 01/17/21 11:18 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,350
Posts3,048,280
Members100,102
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4