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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2620742 03/06/17 03:36 AM
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Not something that would stop us from buying say a CS11 anymore ^^ Our house being what it is it was a factor for us at the time - but having run into touch weight inconsistencies in our metal and plastic action which the manufacturer says it cannot regulate, I think I might actually prefer something like the GFII that can be tended to by any RPT with some new felts and paper discs like any acoustic.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905123 10/27/19 12:04 PM
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Here from my post at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2905120/re-what-is-a-hybrid.html#2905106
To know and, more importantly, to understand the definition of a hybrid digital piano, you have to understand the history of a hybrid digital piano. And I will focus only on a hybrid digital GRAND piano.
The first hybrid digital grand piano to appear was made by Yamaha: it was the Yamaha AvantGrand Hybrid digital pianos (one was an upright hybrid digital piano and the others were hybrid digital grand pianos).
Why these hybrid digital pianos came into being in the first place? One of the challenges and limitations of digital pianos is that their keyboard action and touch is not as good as the keyboard action and touch of an acoustic grand piano. Therefore, the idea was to give the digital piano a "true" acoustic grand piano keyboard and action along with the convenience of a digital piano where the piano sound will be produced digitally through piano sound samples or modeled piano sounds.
BUT it was never planned to be an exact acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch, it was understood that it would be adapted to fit for the purpose of marrying it harmoniously with the digital piano and its needs. In fact, not a single of the current 3 manufacturers of hybrid digital grand pianos have an exact acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch, they all have a modified acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch.
This way, the digital piano would have it both ways: the advantages of a digital piano (no tuning, various sounds available, recording, etc.) with the advantage of using an acoustic grand piano keyboard and touch.
Hence, appeared the following hybrid digital grand pianos (again, I put aside the upright digital pianos that are pointless to buy for the main reason that you will always prefer to have a grand piano keyboard action and touch than an upright keyboard piano action and touch):
---The Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X).
---The Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano (only one hybrid digital grand piano).
---The Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310).

Therefore, the definition comes naturally from this historical explanation:
(from my past posting on this matter at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2889850/1.html#2889515 )
----------------------------------------------------
UPDATED DEFINITION of a hybrid digital grand piano: What is a hybrid digital grand piano? It is first of all a digital piano that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano.
In summary, a hybrid digital grand piano is formed of two parts:
---first, it is a digital piano where the piano sound is produced digitally using piano sound samples and/or modeled piano sounds.
---second, it has a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano.
Result: it has the advantages of a digital piano (no tuning, various sounds available, use of headphones, etc.) with the BIG advantage of an acoustic piano with the acoustic keyboard action and touch. In this respect, it fulfills fully the original goal of creating a digital piano that would have an acoustic keyboard action and touch that is as close to a real one.


Oh, and let me answer the next question that will probably be coming from the fanboys on pianoworld! Question: But the Casio GP hybrid grand piano keyboard action has plastic parts in it so it is not a true grand piano keyboard action? Well, check the hybrid grand piano keyboard action of the Kawai Novus NV10; in fact, in such a case, Kawai went further and adopted a design of a keyboard action with plastic parts in the Kawai Novus NV10 BUT ALSO in their acoustic grand pianos up to their concert grand piano called the Kawai EX Concert Grand Piano (see https://kawaius.com/product/sk-ex/ ). This keyboard action from Kawai with plastic parts is called the Millennium III ABS-Carbon Action (see https://kawaius.com/technology/millennium-iii-abs-carbon-action/ ).

By the way, what differentiates an interpretation of a particular piano piece from one pianist to the next one? The way the pianist has been able to convey the very subtle nuances of the piano sound when playing the piano piece. How could this be achieved? Through the keyboard touch that the pianist has mastered to the highest level and that can only be to the highest level only when it is the keyboard touch of a grand piano or of a piano that has a keyboard touch very close to a grand piano. End of the story!
----------------------------------------------------

Interestingly, this topic is likely to draw out the most fanatics on what should be the definition of a hybrid digital grand piano. No need for another taboo topic!! There are quite a few already: religion, sex, political opinion, race issues, and probably more!

People who bought the more expensive Yamaha AvantGrand hybrid digital grand pianos and/or the Kawai Novus NV10 are sometimes upset when one qualifies the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) as being also hybrid digital pianos but the truth is Casio hybrid digital grand pianos are indeed fully hybrid digital grand pianos that are no different, on this particular point of being also hybrid, than the Yamaha AvantGrand and Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand pianos. So, don't get too religious about that point now that you know and understand why the definition of a hybrid digital piano is the one I have given above!

There is this false idea that, in order to be a hybrid digital piano, you would need to have strings but it is completely false as the historical explanation that I have given above clearly demonstrates.

In order of quality for these digital grand pianos, here are the current hybrid digital GRAND pianos. The Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano might be as good or better than the Yamaha AvantGrand N3X but, very often, people tend to put the Yamaha AvantGrand N3X as being the best one.
---The Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X).
---The Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano (only one hybrid digital grand piano).
---The Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310).

Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/27/19 12:12 PM.
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905176 10/27/19 02:35 PM
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I'm guessing you don't get out much Mike?

Your post is riddled with inaccuracies. And it becomes crystal clear that your position is one that will redefine anything just so long as it allows you to classify the Casio GP pianos in whatever way suits your fragile ego. They are hybrids just because you say so.

The Casios have actions no more like a real grand piano than any of the CA series Kawais (or wooden keyed Kawai MP stage pianos). And let's not forget the ancient Yamaha Clavinova CLP990 from the 1990s. By your definition they are also hybrids.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905187 10/27/19 03:04 PM
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I really don't think it matters what we all consider the term "hybrid" to mean as it's quite clear that as far as marketing goes companies are going to use the term in different ways and how they see fit.

As far as my opinion on this, well I may as well add my 2p.. smile

I think a hybrid is any acoustic piano that also has a silent system. You can play it as an acoustic or a digital (or both at the same time).

That said, I have no issue with people calling digitals that have acoustic actions in them hybrids, but then I do wonder where should the line be drawn as to what is just a digital and what is a hybrid? As digitals have tried to replicate the feel/sound of an acoustic for a long time, which parts of that replication are sufficient to be called a hybrid? Is it only the action? Is it the sound? Is it the weighted keys? Something else? It all seems to get rather wishy washy and vague.

In the end, everyone will draw their own line and companies will jump over it for marketing anyway, so this all seems like a discussion that really can't go anywhere and a marketing term that is likely only going to confuse or mislead people.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905196 10/27/19 03:14 PM
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There will never be a consensus on the definition of a hybrid so why does any of this matter?


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905267 10/27/19 05:15 PM
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@MikePianoLover : I can’t follow you. You first introduce an history of digital piano where the first “hybrid” piano, AvantGrand had - like you said - « a "true" acoustic grand piano keyboard and action » and then you “update” the definition to mean something else and include an action far simplified (no escapement).

The actual meaning of “hybrid” is not such important, but the Casio use tries to makes us think GP500 is near a N1X which is wrong : just try both ! The N1X makes me think I could afford it even if it is sold at 8000€... the Casio GP500 : not above a let's say CLP675. Then both have fine actions, but not worth the N1X when I play them. (No idea of the NV10 I haven’t tried).

Even Roland claims an “hybrid grand action”... sign that “hybrid” doesn’t mean anything anymore.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/27/19 05:18 PM.

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Re: Hybrids?
Peddler100 #2905294 10/27/19 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by oneilt130
There will never be a consensus on the definition of a hybrid so why does any of this matter?

Hear, hear. It's an obsessive need by some to define everything. I really don't care if my piano is called a "hybrid" or not - I care if it's good to play and sounds good.

Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2905336 10/27/19 09:16 PM
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Mike,

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Your post is riddled with inaccuracies.


This.

Writing text in blue does not validate its content.

Also, why bump a thread from two and a half years ago?

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Re: Hybrids?
Kawai James #2905337 10/27/19 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Mike,

Originally Posted by EssBrace
Your post is riddled with inaccuracies.


This.

Writing text in blue does not validate its content.

No, of course it doesn't. Writing in all-caps does that. 😶


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Re: Hybrids?
MikePianoLover #2905389 10/28/19 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover


In order of quality for these digital grand pianos, here are the current hybrid digital GRAND pianos. The Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano might be as good or better than the Yamaha AvantGrand N3X but, very often, people tend to put the Yamaha AvantGrand N3X as being the best one.
---The Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X).
---The Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano (only one hybrid digital grand piano).
---The Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310).


Again, the Casios, although they are wonderful, don't fit your definition of a hybrid, as the action is fundamentally different from that of a grand piano.

Re: Hybrids?
johnstaf #2905397 10/28/19 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf

Again, the Casios, although they are wonderful, don't fit your definition of a hybrid, as the action is fundamentally different from that of a grand piano.

I would argue the Casio GP-300/310/400/500/510 action is superior to acoustic actions. As Casio have removed the let-off simulation, thereby improving responsiveness.

Last edited by Burkie; 10/28/19 03:56 AM.

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Re: Hybrids?
Burkey #2905399 10/28/19 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by johnstaf

Again, the Casios, although they are wonderful, don't fit your definition of a hybrid, as the action is fundamentally different from that of a grand piano.

I would argue the Casio GP-300/310/400/500/510 action is superior to acoustic actions. As Casio have removed the let-off simulation, thereby improving responsiveness.


Without the letoff of an acoustic grand action, fast pianissimo passages are more difficult. This is a disadvantage compared to an acoustic grand.

Re: Hybrids?
johnstaf #2905402 10/28/19 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Again, the Casios, although they are wonderful, don't fit your definition of a hybrid, as the action is fundamentally different from that of a grand piano.
I would argue the Casio GP-300/310/400/500/510 action is superior to acoustic actions. As Casio have removed the let-off simulation, thereby improving responsiveness.
Without the letoff of an acoustic grand action, fast pianissimo passages are more difficult. This is a disadvantage compared to an acoustic grand.

And as we saw in Bulgaria, johnstaf has repertoire with fast pianissimo passages! smile

Here is a video explaining the relationship between these two elements that I've posted before on here.



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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905403 10/28/19 04:11 AM
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blush

Re: Hybrids?
johnstaf #2905404 10/28/19 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
blush

thumb


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905407 10/28/19 04:27 AM
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Having let-off and a double repetition lever allows for the hammer to rebound and be caught by the backcheck, away from the string/rail, ready for re-strike. Not the case with Casio and other digital pianos where you need to release the key and wait for the hammer to move and then you have to overcome its inertia to throw it back against the string which ultimately isn't a precise thing because of that inertia.

Furthermore, I've already firmly established for myself that after owning the N1X with a real grand piano action, I'm finally able to have consistent trills where there aren't louder notes. On regular digital pianos it turns out there's something like resonance happening, similar to a punch bag (the one boxers train with) where repeated notes lead to acceleration of the hammer because it just bounces between the rail and the key. There's nothing that stops the hammer on a digital piano, unlike the backcheck in a real piano.

With all that in mind, Casio is not a hybrid piano in terms of piano action and has all the disadvantages of digital piano actions.


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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905408 10/28/19 04:28 AM
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You guys are talking about the value and purpose of escapement in two different settings:
1. Piano with a grand action, and with escapement
2. Piano without a grand action, and without escapement (the Casio)

A meaningful comparison would be:
2. Piano without a grand action, and without escapement (the Casio)
3. Piano without a grand action, and with escapement (not the Casio)

Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905409 10/28/19 04:31 AM
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^ Read the post just above yours. There's more to escapement (let-off), double repetition lever and backchecks than just "solving the problem of strings". As I have stated many times, those are all things that were implemented to solve a problem, yes, but they actually, by a matter of lucky chance (or not) contribute to the real grand piano action being more expressive than anything else that tries to imitate it.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/28/19 04:33 AM.

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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905410 10/28/19 04:48 AM
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Without escapement, an action doesn’t need to be armed again to replay a note. The repetition is only limited by where the sensor are placed.

With an escapement, (like in upright), we have to arm the escapement again before the next note, this explains the repetition lever (or double escapement) which is an improvement of the action which arm the escapement faster.

Note: some digital piano action have a let off emulation, but it is not a real escapement, then it doesn’t have to be armed again. A real escapement is only needed to avoid the hammer to be blocked against the strings... something which doesn’t happen when there are no strings.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/28/19 04:52 AM.

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Re: Hybrids?
keykeyzkeys #2905411 10/28/19 04:54 AM
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I found the 'ask the pianist' video less and less convincing as it went on, especially when it got to the Debussy at the end. Isn't this all 'just' a matter of technique whether you are playing digital or acoustic? That is a rhetorical question to myself! Will have to investigate further on the various pianos.


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