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Re: What is a hybrid?
Gombessa #2903857 10/23/19 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Burkie

However weighted keys are required in order to allow expressive touch by providing resistance, so that is a feature not an artifact.


You can have expressive touch a number of different ways, including pure velocity sensing, or pressure sensing. Saying that weighted keys is a feature, but grading is an artifact, is drawing an arbitrary line in the sand.

No - if the keys have 2-gram weight required to push them down then simply resting your fingers on the keys will play the notes. Obviously that's useless - so key weighting (~40 grams) is a required feature, it is not an artifact. Also your fingers need feedback in order to sense velocity - again an essential feature.

Last edited by Burkie; 10/23/19 10:58 PM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2903871 10/24/19 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Many of you know that I've resisted the notion that the AG and NV pianos are hybrids.
Nice pianos, yes. But no strings? Not a hybrid.

The Danes seem to agree. At https://www.digitalpiano.dk you can click on Hybrid Pianos, which takes you to https://www.digitalpiano.dk/hybrid.html

There they list all their hybrids ... all of them with strings.


That is easy. If a Digital Piano is released and ends up having a 60+ pages long thread on pianoworld forum, it is a hybrid! Both NV10 and N1X qualify!

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Re: What is a hybrid?
Burkey #2903957 10/24/19 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie

No - if the keys have 2-gram weight required to push them down then simply resting your fingers on the keys will play the notes. Obviously that's useless - so key weighting (~40 grams) is a required feature, it is not an artifact. Also your fingers need feedback in order to sense velocity - again an essential feature.


Regardless of weighting, digitals and unweighted synths already accommodate that through velocity sensing. 2g = x (min) velocity. <x = no sound even if you rest your fingers on the keys, and you could just hold them up without testing them, too. I think YOU (and I) need "feedback" because that's what we learned on, but if we learned on unweighted keys, we'd develop other feedback mechanisms that were just now not accustomed to. So it's really not necessary for playing, hence an artifact in the end wink


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Re: What is a hybrid?
Gombessa #2904209 10/24/19 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Burkie

No - if the keys have 2-gram weight required to push them down then simply resting your fingers on the keys will play the notes. Obviously that's useless - so key weighting (~40 grams) is a required feature, it is not an artifact. Also your fingers need feedback in order to sense velocity - again an essential feature.


Regardless of weighting, digitals and unweighted synths already accommodate that through velocity sensing. 2g = x (min) velocity. <x = no sound even if you rest your fingers on the keys, and you could just hold them up without testing them, too. I think YOU (and I) need "feedback" because that's what we learned on, but if we learned on unweighted keys, we'd develop other feedback mechanisms that were just now not accustomed to. So it's really not necessary for playing, hence an artifact in the end wink

Firstly, I have yet to play any keyboard that required zero grams of downweight to play.
So your point is moot as there is technically no such thing as unweighted keys.
Which also means your fingers are always receiving feedback, which disproves your claim.

So that leaves a weight somewhere between 2 grams and 46 grams.
Obviously there is an optimal key weighting that will vary from person to person, and from one age/time to another, due to physical finger strength.
Most performing concert pianists prefer around 46 grams.

This is also why a feature that will eventually emerge in digital pianos is variable/adjustable key weighing - e.g. with water pumps. So each player can can adjust, save, and reload their own key weightings.
This feature would also allow auto-servicing so when actions gain friction over time the key weightings can be automatically adjusted to compensate.

Last edited by Burkie; 10/24/19 08:19 PM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905106 10/27/19 11:33 AM
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To know and, more importantly, to understand the definition of a hybrid digital piano, you have to understand the history of a hybrid digital piano. And I will focus only on a hybrid digital GRAND piano.
The first hybrid digital grand piano to appear was made by Yamaha: it was the Yamaha AvantGrand Hybrid digital pianos (one was an upright hybrid digital piano and the others were hybrid digital grand pianos).
Why these hybrid digital pianos came into being in the first place? One of the challenges and limitations of digital pianos is that their keyboard action and touch is not as good as the keyboard action and touch of an acoustic grand piano. Therefore, the idea was to give the digital piano a "true" acoustic grand piano keyboard and action along with the convenience of a digital piano where the piano sound will be produced digitally through piano sound samples or modeled piano sounds.
BUT it was never planned to be an exact acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch, it was understood that it would be adapted to fit for the purpose of marrying it harmoniously with the digital piano and its needs. In fact, not a single of the current 3 manufacturers of hybrid digital grand pianos have an exact acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch, they all have a modified acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch.
This way, the digital piano would have it both ways: the advantages of a digital piano (no tuning, various sounds available, recording, etc.) with the advantage of using an acoustic grand piano keyboard and touch.
Hence, appeared the following hybrid digital grand pianos (again, I put aside the upright digital pianos that are pointless to buy for the main reason that you will always prefer to have a grand piano keyboard action and touch than an upright keyboard piano action and touch):
---The Yamaha Hybrid AvantGrand digital grand pianos (N1, N1X, N2, N3, N3X).
---The Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand piano (only one hybrid digital grand piano).
---The Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310).

Therefore, the definition comes naturally from this historical explanation:
(from my past posting on this matter at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2889850/1.html#2889515 )
----------------------------------------------------
DEFINITION of a digital hybrid grand piano: What is a digital hybrid grand piano? It is a digital piano that has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano. End of the story.
Sorry but anyone who would claim otherwise does not know what he is talking about!! That is as simple as that.

The way this definition is accomplished on a digital hybrid grand piano varies for each of the current 3 makers of hybrid digital pianos (Yamaha with the AvantGrand hybrid digital pianos, Kawai with the Novus NV10, and Casio with the Casio GP hybrid grand pianos). BUT what stays constant and does not vary among these makers of hybrid grand pianos is the mechanical movement of the hammers of these hybrid digital grand pianos, they all have the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano. End of the story!!

Oh, and let me answer the next question that will probably be coming from the fanboys on pianoworld! Question: But the Casio GP hybrid grand piano keyboard action has plastic parts in it so it is not a true grand piano keyboard action? Well, check the hybrid grand piano keyboard action of the Kawai Novus NV10; in fact, in such a case, Kawai went further and adopted a design of a keyboard action with plastic parts in the Kawai Novus NV10 BUT ALSO in their acoustic grand pianos up to their concert grand piano called the Kawai EX Concert Grand Piano (see https://kawaius.com/product/sk-ex/ ). This keyboard action from Kawai with plastic parts is called the Millennium III ABS-Carbon Action (see https://kawaius.com/technology/millennium-iii-abs-carbon-action/ ).

By the way, what differentiates an interpretation of a particular piano piece from one pianist to the next one? The way the pianist has been able to convey the very subtle nuances of the piano sound when playing the piano piece. How could this be achieved? Through the keyboard touch that the pianist has mastered to the highest level and that can only be to the highest level only when it is the keyboard touch of a grand piano or of a piano that has a keyboard touch very close to a grand piano. End of the story!
----------------------------------------------------

Interestingly, this topic is likely to draw out the most fanatics on what should be the definition of a hybrid digital grand piano. No need for another taboo topic!! There are quite a few already: religion, sex, political opinion, race issues, and probably more!

People who bought the more expensive Yamaha AvantGrand hybrid digital grand pianos and/or the Kawai Novus NV10 are sometimes upset when one qualifies the Casio Hybrid digital grand pianos (GP-500, GP-400, GP-300; latest ones: GP-510, GP-310) as being also hybrid digital pianos but the truth is Casio hybrid digital grand pianos are indeed fully hybrid digital grand pianos that are no different, on this particular point of being also hybrid, than the Yamaha AvantGrand and Kawai Novus NV10 hybrid digital grand pianos. So, don't get too religious about that point now that you know and understand why the definition of a hybrid digital piano is the one I have given above!

There is this false idea that, in order to be a hybrid digital piano, you would need to have strings but it is completely false as the historical explanation that I have given above clearly demonstrates.

Re: What is a hybrid?
MikePianoLover #2905110 10/27/19 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
There is this false idea that, in order to be a hybrid digital piano, you would need to have strings but it is completely false as the historical explanation that I have given above clearly demonstrates.
In other words ... I say so, therefore it's true? Is that the message? smile

Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905120 10/27/19 11:58 AM
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Let me be every more precise than what I wrote above just in case it would be necessary.
UPDATED DEFINITION of a hybrid digital grand piano: What is a hybrid digital grand piano? It is first of all a digital piano that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano.
In summary, a hybrid digital grand piano is formed of two parts:
---first, it is a digital piano where the piano sound is produced digitally using piano sound samples and/or modeled piano sounds.
---second, it has a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano.
Result: it has the advantages of a digital piano (no tuning, various sounds available, use of headphones, etc.) with the BIG advantage of an acoustic piano with the acoustic keyboard action and touch. In this respect, it fulfills fully the original goal of creating a digital piano that would have an acoustic keyboard action and touch that is as close to a real one.

Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/27/19 12:01 PM.
Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905129 10/27/19 12:25 PM
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@MacPianoLover... you seem to mean that an hybrid piano has “ an exact acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch, ». With such a definition you should remove the Casio from the list, since it has a very simplified action (no escapement).

I won’t argue what should be named hybrid or not, but your post indicates that when Casio names its piano hybrid, this is misleading : you seem to consider the AvantGrand and Casio Hybrid keyboards to be comparable.

Note : the first hybrid in the Yamaha meaning is probably the Yamaha GranTouch which was equivalent with AvantGrand, just an older generation. (GranTouch with no d... nowadays GrandTouch is the CLP685 or CLP675 keyboard).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/27/19 12:27 PM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905131 10/27/19 12:31 PM
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The sensors. I've been dying to ask this for a while - do the sensors work by following the action of the hammer or the key, or some other thingy? I'd go for a 'hybrid' being one that has sensors that react to the way the hammer moves....


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Re: What is a hybrid?
MikePianoLover #2905156 10/27/19 01:30 PM
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You didn't answer my question. frown
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Let me be every more precise than what I wrote above just in case it would be necessary.
UPDATED DEFINITION ...

Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905160 10/27/19 01:42 PM
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I'm glad I haven't read every post in this thread.

I think some folks have a great deal of free time on their hands. smile


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Re: What is a hybrid?
MikePianoLover #2905369 10/28/19 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover

In summary, a hybrid digital grand piano is formed of two parts:
---first, it is a digital piano where the piano sound is produced digitally using piano sound samples and/or modeled piano sounds.
---second, it has a very close approximation of an acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch that has the fundamental feature of any acoustic grand piano keyboard action and touch where it has the same mechanical movement for its hammers than the mechanical movement of the hammers of a grand piano.


Only Yamaha and Kawai are in this category. Casio do not make a piano with a grand piano action.

Why do you dismiss people with a contrary opinion to yours as fanboys?

BTW, we know what Kawai actions are made of.

Casio make wonderful digital pianos. The action is great on the GPs, but it's not a grand action.

Last edited by johnstaf; 10/28/19 12:24 AM.
Re: What is a hybrid?
MikePianoLover #2905379 10/28/19 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
... original goal of creating a digital piano that would have an acoustic keyboard action and touch that is as close to a real one.

No - the goal of a digital piano is to have superior touch, action, and sound over acoustic pianos.
No one can argue with that goal smile. Acoustics are seriously limited by physics - limitations that digital pianos do not suffer from (E.g. hammer weight grading, aliquot string resonance, duplex scaling, let-off friction)

And as MacMacMac pointed out in another discussion thread, of those 3 things only the sound is the final frontier.

That one will be achieved in the next 10-20 years.

Acoustics will soon be (overweight) antiques smile

Last edited by Burkie; 10/28/19 01:42 AM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905384 10/28/19 02:03 AM
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Aliquot resonance and duplex scaling are not limitations. They're not even a factor in many pianos. Many European manufacturers didn't even use duplex scaling until very recently. The Bösendorfer 225, for example, still doesn't use it, so aliquot resonance isn't relevant.

Last edited by johnstaf; 10/28/19 02:03 AM.
Re: What is a hybrid?
johnstaf #2905387 10/28/19 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Aliquot resonance and duplex scaling are not limitations.

They're Band-Aids aimed at compensating for underlying limitations of acoustic pianos.

Regardless of whether or not these Band-Aids are implemented - the underlying limitations still remain.

It is certainly ignorant and foolish to pontificate that these are features.

Last edited by Burkie; 10/28/19 02:15 AM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
Burkey #2905445 10/28/19 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie

It is certainly ignorant and foolish to pontificate that these are features.


You obviously have a lot to learn about the design and history of the acoustic piano.


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Re: What is a hybrid?
Burkey #2905451 10/28/19 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
... original goal of creating a digital piano that would have an acoustic keyboard action and touch that is as close to a real one.

No - the goal of a digital piano is to have superior touch, action, and sound over acoustic pianos.
No one can argue with that goal smile. Acoustics are seriously limited by physics - limitations that digital pianos do not suffer from (E.g. hammer weight grading, aliquot string resonance, duplex scaling, let-off friction)

And as MacMacMac pointed out in another discussion thread, of those 3 things only the sound is the final frontier.

That one will be achieved in the next 10-20 years.

Acoustics will soon be (overweight) antiques smile


That’s laughable. Acoustic pianos will outlive us all. The lower end models may fall away but the higher end models will remain, and the mighty grand will live on for a long time.

My opinion is that the physics of striking a string vs playing back a sampled or modeled sound through a sound system are different things and that they will never be equal. As many have pointed out, that sampled sound is recorded in another room and not in the room you’re playing in. Modeled piano sounds are often criticized as being fake.

I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on my stereo, and have been derided as an audiophool, and, yet, I will readily admit that the recordings of piano, and classical guitar, which I also play, do not sound anything like hearing the acoustic versions of the same instruments in my room. The recorded sound is good but it is not as good as hearing an actual acoustic instrument being played live in my space.

We have electric guitars, thousands of effects pedals, and complicated modeling software, but people still buy and play acoustic guitars because there is something pure about plucking a string, just as there something pure about striking a string.

Last edited by LarryK; 10/28/19 07:16 AM.
Re: What is a hybrid?
MacMacMac #2905457 10/28/19 07:30 AM
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Can we also count in the "nostalgia" bit that comes with the technological progress. Take for example the gramophone. It was practically dead with only a very few audiophiles on earth still listening to one. And then when you have high definition audio and really great sounding stereos, headphones, and even your own smartphone all being so affordable, portable, reliable and sounding as good as nobody would heave dreamt 50 years ago... then the vinyl comes back smile

Maybe when digital pianos become so good to replace (obsolete?) real acoustic pianos it would be the acoustic piano comeback. Just a thought smile


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Re: What is a hybrid?
LarryK #2905460 10/28/19 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
That’s laughable. Acoustic pianos will outlive us all. The lower end models may fall away but the higher end models will remain, and the mighty grand will live on for a long time.

My opinion is that the physics of striking a string vs playing back a sampled or modeled sound through a sound system are different things and that they will never be equal. As many have pointed out, that sampled sound is recorded in another room and not in the room you’re playing in. Modeled piano sounds are often criticized as being fake.

I think you need to study the recent advances in quantum computing.
Current modelled instrument sounds are built using classical binary computing which limits how much processing can be performed in parallel (required for real time sound rendering).

However quantum computing is several orders of magnitude more powerful. It is perfectly suited to modelling the physics of metal string vibration in realtime. Quantum computing will become commercialized over the next 5-10 years.

So I have no doubt the modelling can be achieved.

As you mention, the main improvements need to be in the speaker technology.

Last edited by Burkie; 10/28/19 07:40 AM.

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Re: What is a hybrid?
terminaldegree #2905463 10/28/19 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Burkie

It is certainly ignorant and foolish to pontificate that these are features.


You obviously have a lot to learn about the design and history of the acoustic piano.

Do feel free to actually explain you point smile

Are you seriously trying to claim that duplex scaling and aliquot strings are not merely band-aid attempts to compensate for the physical limitations of acoustic pianos?!

If so, then you obviously do not know what these actually are!

Last edited by Burkie; 10/28/19 07:44 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
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