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What is a hybrid? #2903240
10/22/19 05:05 PM
10/22/19 05:05 PM
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MacMacMac Offline OP
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Many of you know that I've resisted the notion that the AG and NV pianos are hybrids.
Nice pianos, yes. But no strings? Not a hybrid.

The Danes seem to agree. At https://www.digitalpiano.dk you can click on Hybrid Pianos, which takes you to https://www.digitalpiano.dk/hybrid.html

There they list all their hybrids ... all of them with strings.

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Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903249
10/22/19 05:16 PM
10/22/19 05:16 PM
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CyberGene Offline
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I think semantic loyalty needs to translate to customer loyalty.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903252
10/22/19 05:23 PM
10/22/19 05:23 PM
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Oh Mac....

Acoustic action + digital sound generation = hybrid.

Yamaha Avant Grands are Hybrids. Kawai Novuses (Novi?) are hybrids. NOTHING else currently available is a hybrid.

Why would a piano with strings be a hybrid? A piano with strings is an acoustic piano. Yes, there are products with strings and digital sound generation but they are also other things which place them in the market differently, and allow them to be differentiated from acoustics, hybrids and digitals with other recognised nomenclature, such as 'silent pianos' or 'Transacoustics/Aures' etc.

In the real world, i.e., the piano market place, the ONLY definition which makes sense (and which most people now seem to accept) is...

Acoustic action + digital sound generation = hybrid.


C. Bechstein Model B | Yamaha P-515 | Roland RD-1000
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903254
10/22/19 05:34 PM
10/22/19 05:34 PM
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Didn’t Yamaha coin the term “hybrid” when they invented the AvantGrand series a decade ago? If that’s the case by definition AG’s and Novi are hybrids.

I agree with EssBrace, if a piano has strings it’s an acoustic.


Yamaha N1X, P-515. Garritan CFX. Genelec 8331 monitors.
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903258
10/22/19 05:45 PM
10/22/19 05:45 PM
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I think there is no official defintion of a hybrid piano.

To me a digital piano with a real acoustic action is a hybrid, but you could also say that's just a digital with an action from an acoustic, and consider a silent or "transacoustic" (as Yamaha calls it) piano to be a true hybrid, since it's a combination of a digital and acoustic piano.

I think it's whatever you want to call it actually, it doesn't really matter to me. smile

Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903266
10/22/19 06:12 PM
10/22/19 06:12 PM
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So ... you think I should buy one of those ATX or Aures models, instead of an AG or Novus? Is that what you're telling me? smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I think semantic loyalty needs to translate to customer loyalty.

Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: JJHLH] #2903272
10/22/19 06:17 PM
10/22/19 06:17 PM
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MacMacMac Offline OP
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This is surely true ...
Originally Posted by JJHLH
If a piano has strings it’s an acoustic.
And ...
If a piano with strings is an acoustic, then a piano with only digital sound is a digital piano.
If a piano has both then it's a hybrid ... as with all of the ATX/Aures pianos on that Danish site.
You choose the sound. Strings when you want them. Digits when you don't.

This is my motivation ...
Originally Posted by U3piano
... consider a silent or "transacoustic" (as Yamaha calls it) piano to be a true hybrid, since it's a combination of a digital and acoustic piano.
These Yamahas predate all of the newbie hybrid imposters.

Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: EssBrace] #2903276
10/22/19 06:25 PM
10/22/19 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Oh Mac....

Acoustic action + digital sound generation = hybrid.

Yamaha Avant Grands are Hybrids. Kawai Novuses (Novi?) are hybrids. NOTHING else currently available is a hybrid.

Why would a piano with strings be a hybrid? A piano with strings is an acoustic piano. Yes, there are products with strings and digital sound generation but they are also other things which place them in the market differently, and allow them to be differentiated from acoustics, hybrids and digitals with other recognised nomenclature, such as 'silent pianos' or 'Transacoustics/Aures' etc.

In the real world, i.e., the piano market place, the ONLY definition which makes sense (and which most people now seem to accept) is...

Acoustic action + digital sound generation = hybrid.


+1

Mac, with all all due respect, I think you've been set on a subjectively rigid definition of hybrid, one that isn't even accepted in your domains of expertise. Duplication/redundancy of function (digital sound generation + acoustic sound generation from strings in a single instrument) isn't a necessary condition for a hybrid. In fact, technically *function* (acoustic sound generation) shouldn't come into the definition at all--a hybrid simply needs to be a mix or cross between two species/varieties.

An acoustic action mated to digital sound generation is plainly a hybrid. As would a Yamaha NWX action glued to plectrums strumming a harpsichord. As a marketing term, Yamaha's definition for the AGs seems pure enough (real acoustic action, digital sound generation), but it does open the door for others to make the same claim for a number of other things (does the acoustic upright cabinet that houses a CS-11 make it a hybrid).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903281
10/22/19 06:31 PM
10/22/19 06:31 PM
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MacMacMac Offline OP
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Yamaha had a different idea decades ago.
I'm especially annoyed by advertisers who pervert traditional meaning to cajole and deceive. The AG and NV pianos are only hybrid by this johnny-come-lately definition.

But, U3 says it doesn't matter to him. And in a limited sense it doesn't matter to me, either.
That's because I'm likely to buy one of those imposter hybrids in a year or so. I just won't be fooled into thinking it's a hybrid.
Rather I'll be convinced that I'm getting a top-notch digital.

Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903287
10/22/19 06:37 PM
10/22/19 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Rather I'll be convinced that I'm getting a top-notch digital.


Well, you'd be right there. It would certainly be a digital piano. But according to the definition, that doesn't make it also *not* a hybrid wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: Gombessa] #2903290
10/22/19 06:43 PM
10/22/19 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa


Duplication/redundancy of function (digital sound generation + acoustic sound generation from strings in a single instrument) isn't a necessary condition for a hybrid. In fact, technically *function* (acoustic sound generation) shouldn't come into the definition at all--a hybrid simply needs to be a mix or cross between two species/varieties.


It's the same concept with my Prius. It's a mix/cross between an internal combustion engine and a battery powered electric motor. The two work together to form the Toyota Prius Hybrid. The car won't run without both working together.

Same with the N1X/NV-10. Acoustic action working with electric/digital sound generation produces a hybrid piano.

Hybrid is a blending of two different things to produce a third (hybrid) result. From what I understand the acoustic pianos that actually have sound generators in them work independently of each another. You either have an acoustic sound or a digital sound. However, the two don't seem to be designed to work together to produce a third (hybrid) result.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 10/22/19 06:48 PM.

Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Mac mini 2018/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
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Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: MacMacMac] #2903294
10/22/19 06:46 PM
10/22/19 06:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So ... you think I should buy one of those ATX or Aures models, instead of an AG or Novus? Is that what you're telling me? smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I think semantic loyalty needs to translate to customer loyalty.

Oh, no! I meant that in a world where salesmen would tell you lies, these particular ones might be worth it a customer respect for their honesty, despite being far away from you smile (Although it can be argued that they simply tell you only what you wanna hear wink )


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: Gombessa] #2903300
10/22/19 06:53 PM
10/22/19 06:53 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
As a marketing term, Yamaha's definition for the AGs seems pure enough (real acoustic action, digital sound generation), but it does open the door for others to make the same claim for a number of other things (does the acoustic upright cabinet that houses a CS-11 make it a hybrid).

Still trying to understand what two things are being married together in the case of a Casio GP which makes it a "hybrid" though....


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2903309
10/22/19 07:06 PM
10/22/19 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by David B


It's the same concept with my Prius. It's a mix/cross between an internal combustion engine and a battery powered electric motor. The two work together to form the Toyota Prius Hybrid. The car won't run without both working together.


I've actually thought about the analogy to hybrid cars. Some Priuses qualify (but as I understand it, technically speaking a traditional Prius can drive the wheels from either gas engine or the electric motor, which meets Mac's minimum definition). A better example might be the Chevy Volt, which is undeniably also a hybrid. But the gas engine (strings) can only charge the electric battery (digital sound generation), and isn't part of the drivetrain--only the electric motor is--so it doesn't drive the car (produce sound). Both Prius and Volt qualify as hybrids, but you cannot say the Volt *isn't* a hybrid. Yeah, I get this may be overthinking things smile

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Still trying to understand what two things are being married together in the case of a Casio GP which makes it a "hybrid" though....


Practically: Nothing more than any other "non-hybrid" digital piano like a CLP or LX. Pure digital-only action (not used in an acoustic), per digital only sound generation, pure digital-only cabinet and sound reproduction.

Reducto ad absurdum: It has wooden keys (is that enough?). Maybe it has the same keytop material as a C. Bechstein? It uses wood in its cabinet construction? Again, nothing different from any other high-end digital piano, but should the line be drawn somewhere? I kind of think in this case the "marketing" definition Yamaha came up with is fair to define the category. That's up to debate of course, but I don't think it's quite as debatable as whether an AG is a hybrid or not.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: Gombessa] #2903321
10/22/19 07:25 PM
10/22/19 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by David B


It's the same concept with my Prius. It's a mix/cross between an internal combustion engine and a battery powered electric motor. The two work together to form the Toyota Prius Hybrid. The car won't run without both working together.


I've actually thought about the analogy to hybrid cars. Some Priuses qualify (but as I understand it, technically speaking a traditional Prius can drive the wheels from either gas engine or the electric motor, which meets Mac's minimum definition).


That's true, but the gas engine and electric motor must work together. Even when the gas engine is running the battery is charging to run the electric motor. The transition between the two is almost constant and if one fails the car will not run.

It's a symbiotic relationship just like in the N1X/NV10. If either the acoustic action or digital sound fails the piano will not play. The two dependent on each other is also what makes it a hybrid.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 10/22/19 07:34 PM.

Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
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Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: David B] #2903331
10/22/19 07:36 PM
10/22/19 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by David B

Hybrid is a blending of two different things to produce a third (hybrid) result. From what I understand the acoustic pianos that actually have sound generators in them work independently of each another. You either have an acoustic sound or a digital sound. However, the two don't seem to be designed to work together to produce a third (hybrid) result.

God Bless,
David

Not the case for the Yamaha Transacoustic. They will allow the digital piano sound to lift the dampers and activate the acoustic strings for the purposes of resonance. So that's a hybrid for sure.

Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2903366
10/22/19 08:41 PM
10/22/19 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Still trying to understand what two things are being married together in the case of a Casio GP which makes it a "hybrid" though....


Casio are lying. Many people seem to think that the Casio GPs have real piano actions.

Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: ando] #2903394
10/22/19 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by David B

Hybrid is a blending of two different things to produce a third (hybrid) result. From what I understand the acoustic pianos that actually have sound generators in them work independently of each another. You either have an acoustic sound or a digital sound. However, the two don't seem to be designed to work together to produce a third (hybrid) result.

God Bless,
David

Not the case for the Yamaha Transacoustic. They will allow the digital piano sound to lift the dampers and activate the acoustic strings for the purposes of resonance. So that's a hybrid for sure.


That's pretty cool.

Although, they still can work independently from each other (at least acoustic can) where hybrid in piano nomenclature seems to include a collaboration of the two (acoustic and digital) in order to function at all.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 10/22/19 09:16 PM.

Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Mac mini 2018/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-42 Completed
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: johnstaf] #2903403
10/22/19 09:21 PM
10/22/19 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Still trying to understand what two things are being married together in the case of a Casio GP which makes it a "hybrid" though....
Casio are lying. Many people seem to think that the Casio GPs have real piano actions.

You'd think that these days, when there often are legal repercussions for outright lying in marketing literature, that Casio's lawyers would have had them come up with some reason. I can almost picture in my mind's eye, one of their in-house lawyers asking the marketing department, "What will we say if we are asked why the GP is a hybrid?" LOL


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What is a hybrid? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2903407
10/22/19 09:27 PM
10/22/19 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You'd think that these days, when there often are legal repercussions for outright lying in marketing literature, that Casio's lawyers would have had them come up with some reason. I can almost picture in my mind's eye, one of their in-house lawyers asking the marketing department, "What will we say if we are asked why the GP is a hybrid?" LOL


There's nothing technically inaccurate about the name. As Mac suggests in the OP, "hybrid" isn't defined, it's not an accepted term of art, and they can also fall back to "the keytops use the same material as on an acoustic."

This is why there's no foul when Roland calls their actions "Hybrid Grand Keyboard" or Kawai US calls the CA-97/CS-11 hybrids. If anything, it's a muddy, meaningless term. Casio is just way more successful capitalizing off of it than other makers.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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