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K300 ATX3
#2902236 10/20/19 08:46 AM
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I'm planning to make a trip to a couple of local Piano stores to try out a few different uprights with a view to upgrading from my current digital piano (Casio PX-720). I've only just started researching options so my list at the moment is rather short, in fact currently it's just the K300 (although I do intend to try the K200/500 too).

I was originally looking at upgrading to another pure digital piano such as the CA98, as a large part of my time will require practice with headphones (late evening etc). However for those parts of the day when i can play without, I really would like an acoustic.

I've fip-flopped a little on this issue since once you reach the price point of the CA98, you're not that far off the price of a quality upright. However then I'd need to keep my PX-720 for silent practice. Or, accept the cost of both new acoustic and new digital, which would then lead to feeling like I'm not using the acoustic enough when practising on the CA98 (and the extra space issue). That then leads to combining the cost and looking at an acoustic with silent mod built in such as the K300 ATX3. Which is where I'm at currently.

One concern I have with that however, is I've read a few posts on various sites saying that silent piano mechanisms such as the ATX3 will change the feel/action of a piano. Is that change only present when the silent play mechanism is active? Would the K300 ATX3 feel identical to the K300 model when played acoustically? I'm planning to visit a few local stores to play the K300/K300 ATX3 and try a few other models, but I'm curious how much difference others have noticed?

Also, In 10 years time the acoustic (if maintained) should play just as nicely as when I bought it, however, the digital side will likely be showing its age. Do Kawai provide any way to upgrade the ATX3 to newer models? Was there an option for ATX2 users to upgrade to ATX3? If so, what kind of cost was incurred?

I'm not sure I'd actually want to do that, as I have no issue hooking up to a computer to take advantage of years worth of improvements to VSTs or modelling. But I am curious.

and finally, for a late beginner/early intermediate player who aspires to become as good as I can be, but has no delusions of playing at a concert pianist level or professionally, I get the impression the K300 will not be limiting my progress at any stage, is that a fair assessment? From what I've read it seems to have a well regarded action and repetition.

and finally (for real this time), what extra costs am I looking at per year for an acoustic (in the UK). Aside from tuning once or twice a year, how long do most acoustics go before other issues need attention, such as worn in hammers/dampners/key felt and when those do arise, what kind of extra cost is usually involved in fixing the issue?

Thanks all for any advice smile


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902292 10/20/19 11:40 AM
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FWIW, I own a Casio Privia PX735, and have recently purchased a K-500. I also considered the K-300 ATX3 but couldn’t accept that in 10 years’ time, the acoustic part will still be young whereas the ATX part will be dated. The K-300 ATX3 is the same price as the K-500 in my area. I was told that upon resale, it’s likely I wouldn’t get much for the ATX part. I intend to keep the Casio until I upgrade it, maybe to a Kawai MP12 when it’s released (hoping in a year or 2). I think that is MY best combination for now, until I also upgrade my K-500 for a grand. Honestly though, I’m uninspired by my Casio. It does it’s job but it doesn’t inspire me at all. Can’t wait for my K-500 to come home. I get goosebumps playing on acoustics. I’m a beginner player btw.

Your flip-flopping wasn’t nearly as bad as my flip-flopping. I was all over the place! Started out wanting an avantgrand then a novus then ca98 then an acoustic grand then finally settled on an acoustic upright in combo with a mid-range digital.

Last edited by WeakLeftHand; 10/20/19 11:49 AM.

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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902351 10/20/19 01:54 PM
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If you can accommodate it I strongly advise an acoustic plus an adequate digital for silent use/other instrument voices etc. I've been looking into the same issues. I favoured possibly the Yamaha transacoustic or Kawai Aures but when the digital side goes down (or is so hopelessly outclassed by whatever's going to come along in ten years' time) that part of the piano becomes redundant.

Also, the premium the manufacturers charge for silent or transacoustic functionality is just insane (especially Yamaha).

I understand that only Yamaha (and Schimmel) have silent systems that do not negatively impact on key feel due to some clever bit of design of some sort.

As an acoustic Kawai K500 is very tempting. It's difficult to find any bad opinion of it in fact. But do look around. I played a very unassuming looking Yamaha U1 last week (30 odd years old) and it was sensational. Far better than a more expensive used U3 next to it. They're all different - new ones less so than used ones but every piano is unique - with new pianos if you do find something you really like always buy the one you have played.

I think a typical cost of tuning is about £60 - £70. If you buy from a dealer they really should provide the first tuning free (sometimes the first two tunings) and if the piano is new I would also ask for assurance that if there are some minor voicing issues that become apparent in your home that they will be sorted too. Unless you are going to play it to death I wouldn't imagine that further adjustments (other than really minor things that the tuner can address) will be necessary for several years.

To to OP, where in the UK are you?

Lastly....and probably rather unhelpfully....if you can accommodate a grand, get one.

Good luck.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902781 10/21/19 01:35 PM
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I would like a grand, who wouldn't smile but sadly there is not sufficient space for one.

Regarding buying a digital and acoustic, that's something I've considered but again space becomes an issue. Buying a K300 + CA98 would also cost more than the K300 ATX3. Although the digital could be sold/upgraded in years to come. That said, space is really the issue there along with a side of guilt that would appear anytime I practiced on the digital and not the new acoustic :P

In time I don't mind hooking up to a computer to use PianoTeq (which I currently use) or the latest/greatest VST. So I'm not too worried about the digital side becoming obsolete, as long as I have midi out I'll find it useful I think.

My concern is the feel difference between K300 and K300 ATX3. Or rather, whether the action will change when playing it acoustically in a way that will make some things much harder/impossible. I've seen several posts talk about ppp becoming an issue?

There's a store local to me (near Leeds) that has a range Kawai's including K300, but they do not appear to have the K300 ATX3 to compare against.

As for the K500, I wouldn't mind that, but it is a bit more than I really want to spend, especially if I end up going for an ATX3 version.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902967 10/22/19 02:01 AM
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Why would you buy a K300 + CA98?

The only advantage of the CA98 is how it sounds through the speakers/soundboard, and it would only be used with headphones; any time you would play through the speakers you'd just play the K300 (unless you want to play the other voices).

If that's correct, you could downgrade at least to the CA78, and if you're willing to use PianoTeq then why not just get a VPC1 or similar for silent practice - that way you're not paying for the amp and speakers that you're not using. And then put the extra money toward the K500.

Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902985 10/22/19 06:22 AM
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Yes if I were to get a digital + acoustic, it would make more sense to get the lower end model that has the same action as the soundboard/speaker side of the specs would be of no importance to me.

I think that's the reason I'm so back and forth with this. As it makes a lot of sense to just get the acoustic + either keep my PX-720 for headphone practice, or upgrade to a higher end digital to get the better action.

On the flip side, I'm space constrained. I can fit only one in the room I wish to practice in. I might be able to make room for a second elsewhere but that'd be a compromise on usage hours, so I'm not sure I should. That reason alone makes the ATX version attractive, at least depending on how much ATX compromises the action.

I really should try the K300 + K300 ATX (or K500 variants) however, I'm not sure at my current skill level if I'd pickup on the difference even if it exists smile The concern is, will having the ATX potentially limit my growth down the line? I'm assuming not, but I'm having a hard time finding much on this topic.

On a related note, information on the K300 vs K500 is conflicting. Is there actually any real difference other than the increased height/length of strings and thus change in sound? Some sites suggest it has longer keys others mention it's the same as the K300.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902989 10/22/19 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
Yes if I were to get a digital + acoustic, it would make more sense to get the lower end model that has the same action as the soundboard/speaker side of the specs would be of no importance to me.

I think that's the reason I'm so back and forth with this. As it makes a lot of sense to just get the acoustic + either keep my PX-720 for headphone practice, or upgrade to a higher end digital to get the better action.

On the flip side, I'm space constrained. I can fit only one in the room I wish to practice in. I might be able to make room for a second elsewhere but that'd be a compromise on usage hours, so I'm not sure I should. That reason alone makes the ATX version attractive, at least depending on how much ATX compromises the action.

I really should try the K300 + K300 ATX (or K500 variants) however, I'm not sure at my current skill level if I'd pickup on the difference even if it exists smile The concern is, will having the ATX potentially limit my growth down the line? I'm assuming not, but I'm having a hard time finding much on this topic.

On a related note, information on the K300 vs K500 is conflicting. Is there actually any real difference other than the increased height/length of strings and thus change in sound? Some sites suggest it has longer keys others mention it's the same as the K300.

https://kawaius.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Kawai_KSeries-Brochure-07.jpg
Taken from their brochure, it seems like extended key length is one feature which applies to all of their K series range. For particularities, you could see that neotex key surfaces for example have the observation (k500 and k800 only). However, even this information seems to beoutdated, since in between now you can find k600 or even k700. That being said, I would suggest to contact Kawai UK and ask them about this things, since that's a certain proof. Or maybe, James here on the forum could speak for them if he is aware of all these differences between various models.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2902996 10/22/19 07:19 AM
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I had a K300 ATX2 and it felt fine - I am not a very experienced pianist though and never A/B tested it next to a non ATX2 so who knows - some say they can feel it - others that they don't. If you search back through my posts you'll be able to find some good information on this because I raised this question myself.

I ended up rarely using the ATX functionality and came to prefer just playing with the practice pedal (felt) enabled when I had to be quiet.

I have grown quite fond of the sound of an acoustic with the practice pedal enabled - other people seem to dislike it - you should probably try it out for yourself - it could be that you like it as well.

If I were in your shoes I would definitely get the best acoustic I could afford - without the digital stuff - and keep your current digital.

Re: K300 ATX3
tudor33sud #2903698 10/23/19 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tudor33sud
Taken from their brochure, it seems like extended key length is one feature which applies to all of their K series range.


I emailed Kawai UK to query the differences between the K300 and K500 and to sort out some fact from fiction, I'm not keen on pasting email exchanges without permission so here's a summary of the differences they stated exist:

- Longer Strings
- Larger soundboard
- Full perimeter frame (apparently extra strength rigidity)
- Duplex Scale (Fore)
- Neotex key surface

I'm not sure what difference the Duplex scale makes but it sounds (pun intended) like the main difference is making use of that extra cab height for longer strings/soundboard to achieve a different sound.

Also confirmed there's no way to upgrade ATX versions. It's a shame they don't offer a way to retain the same action sensor system and just swap out the logic board for new ATX versions. Even if you perhaps don't get the full benefit of the new system. It would at least be an option for people who don't want to achieve the same via midi out to pc and then back via line-in.

Wouldn't be surprised if most end up eventually not using ATX anymore and instead buying a separate newer digital or hooking up to a PC. Either way seems Kawai are leaving money on the table by not offering a way to upgrade the logic board.


Ex-member. As there's no delete account option, feel free to quote my posts but there will be no response.
Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2903787 10/23/19 07:50 PM
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Hello Gary,

Originally Posted by Gary001
I emailed Kawai UK to query the differences between the K300 and K500 and to sort out some fact from fiction, I'm not keen on pasting email exchanges without permission so here's a summary of the differences they stated exist...

Thank you for your discretion.

Originally Posted by Gary001
Either way seems Kawai are leaving money on the table by not offering a way to upgrade the logic board.


I know that, in the past, Kawai produces upgrade kits that could be used to convert a regular K series upright into an ATX model. In the case of an existing ATX instrument, given that the sensor system is already installed, it seems logical that the main CPU board could be updated as newer technologies are developed. However, this is not something that manufacturers have pursued - at least, not yet.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: K300 ATX3
Kawai James #2904070 10/24/19 01:52 PM
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I've had a play of a few different uprights now including the K300 and K300 Aures and a handful of Yamahas. I did not notice any difference in feel due to the silent system, although at my level of experience, I wasn't really expecting to.

I had however forgotten just how different the action of an upright feels. As far as key repeat goes, my digital felt more like the grand I tried in terms of not having to fully release keys to repeat. I take it that's down to uprights lacking double escapement. That'll take a bit of getting used to.

On a similar note, what's the repetition limit for a well regulated K300 in the hands of an experienced pianist? Does the ATX system in anyway impact that?

Last edited by Gary001; 10/24/19 01:52 PM.

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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2904072 10/24/19 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
On a similar note, what's the repetition limit for a well regulated K300 in the hands of an experienced pianist?

7 Hz is common for uprights due to the physics. Same note repetition, not different notes.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2904735 10/26/19 11:46 AM
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Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.

In the end, whilst very good points were made about acoustic + separate digital (whether new or keeping my PX-720) I just do not have the space to accommodate two pianos, same for the grand sadly.

I think it'll take me a few week to adjust to playing on an upright after so long on a digital, but I'm quite looking forward to playing an acoustic again. Haven't played one since I was a child.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2904787 10/26/19 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.

In the end, whilst very good points were made about acoustic + separate digital (whether new or keeping my PX-720) I just do not have the space to accommodate two pianos, same for the grand sadly.

I think it'll take me a few week to adjust to playing on an upright after so long on a digital, but I'm quite looking forward to playing an acoustic again. Haven't played one since I was a child.



Congrats!!! Only you can know what is your best choice. Happy playing.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2904794 10/26/19 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.


Congratulations (albeit with some jealousy)!


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: K300 ATX3
Kawai James #2904795 10/26/19 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I know that, in the past, Kawai produces upgrade kits that could be used to convert a regular K series upright into an ATX model. In the case of an existing ATX instrument, given that the sensor system is already installed, it seems logical that the main CPU board could be updated as newer technologies are developed. However, this is not something that manufacturers have pursued - at least, not yet.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James, please do what you can to change the mindset in Kawai in this regard. My next piano will be an acoustic grand, either silent or Transacoustic, either Yamaha or Kawai. The issue of longevity of the digital part in an acoustic instrument which will last decades seems to crop up regularly, and were one manufacturer to address this it would absolutely sway my decision as to which manufacturer to go with.

As I understand it the warranty on say a GX-2 ATX2 is 5 years on the electronics and 10 on the acoustic element. Better than Yamaha I believe. But it would be awesome to see a commitment to support (at customers cost) a silent capability for say 20 years. Surely Kawai know that as long as they are selling pianos they are going to need a silent system, so it can't be out of the question that such a system is developed in a way where parts could be made available for older models in some form. I'm not asking for a 20 year warranty, I'd be happy to pay for upgrades, but I don't want to lose a key element of a £20,000 instrument after 5 years.

Or if you want a crazy idea, many markets are keen to establish subscription models for products. For an annual fee provide updates to the silent system at every product cycle.

Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2904925 10/26/19 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.

In the end, whilst very good points were made about acoustic + separate digital (whether new or keeping my PX-720) I just do not have the space to accommodate two pianos, same for the grand sadly.

I think it'll take me a few week to adjust to playing on an upright after so long on a digital, but I'm quite looking forward to playing an acoustic again. Haven't played one since I was a child.


Good for you. I'm hoping more digital users follow this path. The ideal is really to have both. One for silent practice and one for practicing and performing on an acoustic. I have an acoustic grand and a digital piano and I love this arrangement but I do wish I could play the acoustic 100% of the time which is not going to happen because my second home is a work apartment. Tell us how it goes I think you are going to completely enjoy the acoustic experience.


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Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2904970 10/27/19 03:47 AM
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Like Jethro said, keep us updated! I am very curious. I am in a similar position. Had a Yamaha p115, which was rapidly replaced with a Kawai CA-58. I am an adult beginner and have had lessons for a little more than 1.5 years now. Although I like the CA58 very much and it serves its purpose, the difference between that and the piano of my teacher (a large Yamaha upright, don't know which type), in terms of sound/experience is remarkable (even though I do use a number of nice VSTs). I am sure that at some point (a year or so) I'll buy an acoustic, but I am not sure yet if that should include a silent system or that I keep the CA58 for practicing.

It is interesting to see how these things go. When I bought the Yamaha p115, the salesman told me that as a beginner this piano would be sufficient for very many years to come. Two years down the road I am already considering a third piano...


Yamaha P-115 -> Kawai CA-58 -> Kawai K-300 ATX3
Re: K300 ATX3
Gary001 #2905341 10/27/19 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary001
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone. I finally made a decision to go with the K300 ATX3.


Congrats Gary!

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: K300 ATX3
pianogabe #2906033 10/29/19 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Like Jethro said, keep us updated! I am very curious


Will do. It's going to be a couple of week before we take delivery and will likely take a while to get used to an upright again, but I'll let you know my thoughts after that.


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