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The C Bechstein is arguanbly the best upright on the planet. Get one if you can, you will never regret it. You didn't specifically mention the Concert 8, so with the general statement that "The C Bechstein is arguably the best upright...." I beg to argue that point. Excellent pianos indeed, but when I tried multiple pianos during the search for my dream upright, the Academy 124 although very good, didn't exactly make me sit up in amazement. A Bechstein had in fact been at the very top of my wants list, until I tried the piano next to it. A German made piano that many have never heard of, least of all been able to audition. It was a piano which blew me away. Absolutely delightful, which I finally purchased in the MasterClass guise. Incidently I recall there was an thread on the A124 on the UK piano forum a few years back, which makes for interesting reading HERE
Currently working on:- C Major scale (r/h only - starting with the pinkie finger)......
Dear Noah, We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5. Yours sincerely, The Unicorns
(Sent from my Sinclair ZX81)..........
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The C Bechstein is arguanbly the best upright on the planet. Get one if you can, you will never regret it. You didn't specifically mention the Concert 8, so with the general statement that "The C Bechstein is arguably the best upright...." I beg to argue that point. Excellent pianos indeed, but when I tried multiple pianos during the search for my dream upright, the Academy 124 although very good, didn't exactly make me sit up in amazement. A Bechstein had in fact been at the very top of my wants list, until I tried the piano next to it. A German made piano that many have never heard of, least of all been able to audition. It was a piano which blew me away. Absolutely delightful, which I finally purchased in the MasterClass guise. Incidently I recall there was an thread on the A124 on the UK piano forum a few years back, which makes for interesting reading HERE Thanks tweedpipe for your article! Really concerning was my reading there... I hope things have changed in 10 Years, since Bechstein Academy pianos now are also labeled C. Bechstein and they probably harmonized the lines a little bit. Unfortunately, one cannot judge only by the sound and the brand the aspect of serviceability. I do know that Yamaha is known to be the best in terms of quality control, staying in tune etc ( please correct me if I am wrong ) . I never got to play a Yamaha YUS5, which should sound more refined. We have so many possiblities nowadays when buying something, that I miss the old times where I could just go to a store and get the product that I like, and never had issues with it. In the past, paying extra money would guarantee you the quality ( and you didn't have to read any review ). Right now on the other hand, marketing it's where the money go, and the final products are way worse in quality. I am starting to wonder now that if I pay 10+ thousand of euros for a piano, what if I get to receive a piano with problems, will the dealer be forced to exchange it for me? I think I need to read contract pretty carefully, because it's so easy to excuse yourself because of humidity or whatever reason that could cause an issue... PS: @Tweedpipe, which upright model are you using? Does it happen to be an August Forster?
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Quote- that Yamaha is known to be the best in terms of quality control, staying in tune ect.....
Better known to whom? I find it very unlikely that a mass produced upright like the Yamaha would have better quality control than a performance level manufacturer like Bechstein. The suggestion that the pinblock in the Yamaha will hold a tune better than the Bechstein pinblock is misinformed.
Last edited by Sanfrancisco; 10/03/19 12:45 PM.
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@Tudor33 It was a Sauter. Fwiw, in the 12 years since purchased new, I've had 2 minor perceived quality problems/queries. The first was related to calibration of the inbuilt hygrometer and advise on installing a DamppChaser. The queries were immediately answered by a letter from Spaichingen which put my mind at rest. The second was with the fallboard decelerator - which was a little too speedy! This anomaly was immediately addressed, again with a letter by Carl Sauter himself, together with a package containing a replacement fallboard mechanism. Faultless after-sales service, which still gives me satisfaction knowing that there are still a few piano manufacturers remaining who really care about personalized contact with their customers. As I've stated more than once, the honeymoon period with this fine piano still continues.
Last edited by Tweedpipe; 10/03/19 01:05 PM.
Currently working on:- C Major scale (r/h only - starting with the pinkie finger)......
Dear Noah, We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5. Yours sincerely, The Unicorns
(Sent from my Sinclair ZX81)..........
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[...] May I ask you upright owners how often do you tune your piano? I am a casual player I don t play more than 1 hour a day, and I was wondering if 2 tunings per year will suffice. I never had am acoustic, so I don t know all the costs and maintainance operations. Whether an upright or a grand, the number of tunings per year will depend upon several factors, even excluding manufacturing anomalies: - How new the piano is, and how many times it may already have been tuned by the dealer while it was on the floor - How long it takes the piano to acclimate to its new surroundings and how tolerant the player may be during that adjustment period - How much playing the piano gets on a regular basis, and how intense that playing may be - How much temperature and humidity swings there may be in the home environment from season to season - How tolerant the owner/player is with unisons going slightly out of tune. While two tunings a year is often the standard recommendation, there is no hard and fast rule about how many times a piano should be tuned, as the above criteria should indicate; much of that is determined by the owner's ability to live with the realities of owning an acoustic piano. For what it may be worth: I have my piano tuned three, sometimes four times a year. During those tunings the technician may make some small adjustments, or do some minor voicing. These prevent more major and more costly work if left to be taken care of at more extended intervals. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Sauter pianos are very well made instruments made in Germany of best componants . My piano keeps perfect tune ,as I said it has a wonderful creative tone and the action is sensitive and resonsive. There have never been any problems and the sound is actually getting even better ! It is not a Masterclass, but I would tell you this I VERY MUCH DOUBT ,that I would ever order ANY piano unseen from ANY piano manufacture UNSEEN and UNPLAYED ! I am not sure my Sauter 130 has real ebony black notes and I do not care . The Masterclass definitely does have also a number of other luxury features such as a very good hygrometer.This does not a better instrument make nor do ebony keys ! This is the kind of of Hygrometer that is also.used in Sauter grand pianos .So I can imagine that ALL of this brings up the price in the Sauter Masterclass ! When I presented my thread on Sauter's 200th anniversary material I was sent material where the statement was made that the specifications of the design pianos of PETER MALY(Sauter)are virtually the SAME AS the MASTERCLASS 122 or 130 ??? As I said I tried the Masterclass 130.in Paris ,but I am happy with my regular Sauter 130.The Masterclass is excellent but I am perfectly happy with my piano.Besides the 130 size is what I needed . But dream on ! If I had intended to buy a piano at THAT price it no doubt would have been the C BECHSTEIN Concert 8 and I would definitely have wanted to TRY it out FIRST before buying ! tudor33sud to be FAIR to you ! The C Bechstein A124 ( or Bechstein A124) is an wonderful instrument far above regular Yamaha and Kawai upright pianos. It is grouped as a Performance grade instrument under Larry Fines Piano Ratings with good reason.If that is the piano you love ,I would go for it . The ULTIMATE PERFECT UPRIGHT is just delusion no matter how many glamorous pictures we show ! All Sauter and C Bechstein pianos deserve thier recognition! I have been in contact a number of times with Ulrich Sauter before and after I bought my piano.
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At this very moment there is a an a C Bechstein A124 in the Dealer downtown. I went there on this past Sunday because we visited someone who lives nearby. We went into this dealer because we needed caster cups for our piano afterwards . While there I tried a used used stencil piano called Scheidmayor.This was perfectly in tune, so I tried a few used pianos (including an upright Baldwin )I also tried the new Bechstein A124 and it was perfectly in tune! I mention this because Tweedpipe points you to a negative review of a Bechstein A124 There are a number of reasons why a piano may lose its tuning .One is that it is very new from a warehouse and needs to adjust. Yet that is why one tries a piano one likes a few times in a dealer ! One may even ask to see the logbook to find out HOW OFTEN the piano is TUNED. This is what we did and our dealer obliged us and we could see how often it was tuned ! If you think you cannot trust the C Bechstein A124 or the Bechstein A124 because of tuning problems you are mistaken. People do not spend huge amounts of money on a piano that ends up highly rated by Larry Fine and the pianos are tuneless failures .Besides even in the BEST brands there is ONE that may not be good !
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As far as I have read Zimmerman pianos are made in China for Bechstein.They are on a much lower level to the Bechstein A124 and have nothing in comparison to present day Bechstein pianos. So the UK forum deliberately distorts the quality of the (C )Bechstein A124 . The Bechstein A124 is made in Germany while the other brands such as W Hoffman are made in the Bechstein factory in the Czech Republic.The Zimmerman today is at the bottom of the barrel. So you cannot equate these 2 the same.
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As far as I have read Zimmerman pianos are made in China for Bechstein.They are on a much lower level to the Bechstein A124 and have nothing in comparison to present day Bechstein pianos. So the UK forum deliberately distorts the quality of the (C )Bechstein A124 . The Bechstein A124 is made in Germany while the other brands such as W Hoffman are made in the Bechstein factory in the Czech Republic.The Zimmerman today is at the bottom of the barrel. So you cannot equate these 2 the same. Small updates to my upright piano adventure. Well, I've received the price quote for the Bechstein Academy which is somewhere at ~13.5 k euros, kinda pricey I would say. However, I was told that there's no showroom in my country, but paying a 30% will guarantee me a contract where I would have the chance to go to the Bechstein factory and play several A124 uprights, and choose the one which I like best. I thought that this option is pretty neat, and I am certainly inclined of taking this deal. Another thing which happened, I've tried to get some information from Sauter pianos and sent them a form via their contact forms, since they don't seem to have a dealer here in Romania. I was very surprised that I didn't receive any answer online, since one day where I found a big envelope in my mail box with flyers from them sent directly from Germany. I was impressed by their large range, however no words on shipping to Romania, how can one test pianos, prices etc. I will follow up with them, but I wanted to state that I kinda liked the classic way of trading and sending flyers via postmail. What do you guys think? Does the Bechstein A124 has a nice price ? In germany where I tested it in one of my holidays it was priced for like 1000 more.
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@Tudor33 It was a Sauter. Fwiw, in the 12 years since purchased new, I've had 2 minor perceived quality problems/queries. The first was related to calibration of the inbuilt hygrometer and advise on installing a DamppChaser. The queries were immediately answered by a letter from Spaichingen which put my mind at rest. The second was with the fallboard decelerator - which was a little too speedy! This anomaly was immediately addressed, again with a letter by Carl Sauter himself, together with a package containing a replacement fallboard mechanism. Faultless after-sales service, which still gives me satisfaction knowing that there are still a few piano manufacturers remaining who really care about personalized contact with their customers. As I've stated more than once, the honeymoon period with this fine piano still continues. Did Sauter recommend installing the DamppChaser? I believe they show up on DamppChaser's website as endorsing the product. Which model did you buy? Do you still have it? Did you install the DamppChaser? If I swallow hard and order a Sauter new, I'll want to do the right thing for the piano, and I can't see not using a DamppChaser. We leave our windows open quite a bit during the year, and we get a lot of humidity in the summer, and it can be very dry in the winter. I think the DamppChaser will keep the tuning more stable than it would be otherwise. What has been your experience? Their pianos are expensive but I am working on my rationalizations. They are as follows: Living in a one bedroom apartment in New York City, I'll never have room for a grand piano. To buy a bigger apartment could easily cost over $400k more than our current place. Moving out of the city is unthinkable to me. Not owning a car saves me at least $50k, or over $1k a month. So, in that light, buying a Sauter looks economical, hahaha.
Last edited by LarryK; 10/18/19 08:22 AM.
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May I intercede with a remark - no war intended: Sauter is praised here a lot and they are fine, so are Bechstein, but from a northern european customers point of view both are just names, big names but NOT THE name in the trade.
From the smaller firms (unlike Bechstein) Sauter is a good name but not unrivaled by all means: Very innovative (including the design of the "furniture"). Steingraeber are just the opposite (as is Förster) and more of a competitor to Bechstein`s No 8, which I consider the only top tier vertical by Bechstein. And then there is still the white elephant in the tops space: K 132 by a small firm in Hamburg.
So for top tier I would select between Bechstein 8 , Steinway K-132 and Steingraeber 130 or 136. One might add Bösendorfer 130 here.
Regarding lower quality/craftmanship of Yamaha/Kawai: Yamaha actions are becoming standard alternatives instead of Renner for many of those higher tier verticals, maybe in anticipation of Steinway`s aquisition of Renner.
So, yes Sauter are excellent instruments but so are the "Konzertklavier" class of Seiler, Pfeiffer, Grotrian, Schimmel, Förster, Blüthner, Petrof and whoever I forgot. And if you prefer a slightly different tone: Kawai and Yamaha.
And finally: Those (dispisable?) guys from the digital front, utilising samples of pianos to produce lots of recorded pieces, mostly prefer OLD instruments instead of newly bought: For example a Vintage D or 1951 D. One commented on a library of a newly sampled pianos: I would love to get a set of samples 10 years from now, when this instrument has aged and finally got character.
So don`t forget to test some older verticals -some with names no longer mentioned like Ibach- and compare them with a Sauter - and check some Sauters of 50 years ago.
All the best
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What is the lowest price in the USA that you could get a brand new Kawai upright? And would it be a good deal or should one go for a more mid-range Kawai? I would mostly be concerned with playability and durability, but the tone would be at least somewhat important. I could sacrifice some tone richness for a much lower price if the action and playability were still superb.
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I am not sure that there is a firm-figure answer to that question. Prices of the same model of new pianos can vary from region to region depending upon a number of factors: dealer inventory, dealer incentive to sell, perhaps even size of the dealership, and local market demand. Buy what best suits your individual criteria and your budget. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Just generalities here but the West Coast has a good selection of both Yamaha and Kawai dealers that are very competitive, which does help keep the prices down. If you don’t live on the West Coast, you’d have to add shipping. If you try it but have it delivered to another state you might avoid the typically higher sales tax, but I’m not sure. And I have no idea about after purchase support such as free tunings. For me, I’d rather buy locally to support my local businesses and get to enjoy the recognition and appreciation of my local dealer. I also like free delivery and tunings. I also prefer that if there is a problem my local dealer can send a qualified piano tech to check it out and fix it if it’s a manufacturing defect or a problem with the delivery or initial piano prep. Which has never happened! I’m less driven by price than I am for convenience and reassurance. Best of Luck!
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
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So, this weekend I managed to travel to Bucharest where there are a couple of options for pianos to be tested. I would like to share my experience here, and maybe ask a couple of questions.
Baby grand pianos that I tried: [list] [*]G Steinberg 152 [*]Perzina 160 [*]Ritmuller 148
Uprights that I tried: [*]Kaiser (I don't know the origin of this one, somewhere around 130 cm in height) [*]Yamaha B3 [*]Essex 123 [*]Zimmerman ( 122 if I remember correctly )
I'd like to say that the pianos that I tried, even though the Ritmuller sounded the worse of all of these 3, the action feels so nice and I really seem to enjoy the sound even though the bass is not that heavy. One thing I was buzzed about though was that playing the Essex and i think the zimmerman as well, I noticed how notes were getting cut off if I was leaving the key down just a little bit after I have played the same note. It seemed really annoying to me, is this something you are getting used to by using an upright ? I'm accustomed with digitals where that never was a problem for me. Obviously, the grands didn't have this issue.
Given this situation, does it happen for anyone to know if the C Bechstein 124 Academy has an action which is able to avoid this problem? Playing the Essex was the most obvious experience of mute pressings of the keys. I really liked the Steinberg 152 piano otherwise, and also the Perzina 160 sounded nice ( a little bit too mellow, but I didn't get the chance to open the lid, and it was also half covered with some felt ). Uprights, honestly I liked the playability and the sound of the Kaiser amongst them all ( I don't even know which manufacturer is that ), but I was thrown back since that one was rebuilt. Bass was ok, and the playability was great, the piano was doing what I wanted to. I'm planning to visit another dealer here in my hometown which happens to own some Petrof 125 and an August Forster upright around the same height, and I want to listen carefully if I will be able to spot the differences and if I will like them more. Baby grand would also be a nice option, but man a nice baby grand is hard to be found (considering tone and playability). I'm so sad that I can't try a kawai k500 or k600, since those are roughly the same price here with some chinese pianos like a perzina baby grand, or an Essex 123. I think you get better quality from Kawai Japan, and they also seem to be consistent. I'm sorry for the amount of questions that I have, but the last one would be also if the silent system on Kawai uprights do affect the action feeling, and if Kawai has some repetition with which you can avoid the silent notes!
Thanks a lot for your support!
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Having to release the key almost completely before being able to play it again is normal for most uprights. Personally I adjusted to it quickly and never notice it anymore.
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