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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2901554 10/18/19 09:31 AM
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cmb13 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jotur
....(Hi W&P folks!)

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Hi Cathy! 👋

Hey! smirk


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: cmb13] #2901556 10/18/19 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by jotur
....(Hi W&P folks!)

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Hi Cathy! 👋

Hey! smirk

We will soon, I hope, have a new W&P person. I've encourage them to introduce themselves to the W&P group, but for the moment they are stealth reading 😎


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: cmb13] #2901563 10/18/19 09:53 AM
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I don't want to hijack this spellbinding thread. So I will post over on the W&P thread. smile


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: TomLC] #2901565 10/18/19 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
I don't want to hijack this spellbinding thread. So I will post over on the W&P thread. smile

Okay, but don't forget, the price of admission is one Tchaikovsky piece (or similar)... smile


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: keystring] #2901574 10/18/19 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
....
1) If you don't want a teacher, you don't need a teacher. (But see 5 below).
2) If you are not interested in classical, you don't need a teacher. (But if you want to be able to play well, get a teacher).
3) If you just want to have fun on the piano, you definitely don't need a teacher.
4) If you only want to play what you want to play, you definitely don't need a teacher.
5) But if you want to play classical to a high standard, you definitely need a good teacher....
To this I would add a no. 6:

If the OP says he or she can't afford a teacher at this time, respect that and then give your advice. Too often people don't actually read what the OP has said--they zoom over it, having already started to form their response in their head.


Originally Posted by keystring
....The same questions will always be asked as people new to piano, or newly encountering something, will have to ask them. I think it's the same for teachers as they get new students. None of them will say, "My goodness, I had to teach how to find middle C again today. I've been teaching that for 20 years, and still the next new student needs to learn it. Will this ever end?" The same questions get asked. The same answers must be given. And it would be good if answerers don't make assumptions - find out a little bit before you jump in....
Agree here. Yes, the same thing gets discussed over and over again, for a good reason. And if you are sick and tired of reading the same stories of whomever's experience in their response, then do what I do--skip over them.


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: Stubbie] #2901579 10/18/19 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by bennevis
....
1) If you don't want a teacher, you don't need a teacher. (But see 5 below).
2) If you are not interested in classical, you don't need a teacher. (But if you want to be able to play well, get a teacher).
3) If you just want to have fun on the piano, you definitely don't need a teacher.
4) If you only want to play what you want to play, you definitely don't need a teacher.
5) But if you want to play classical to a high standard, you definitely need a good teacher....
To this I would add a no. 6:

If the OP says he or she can't afford a teacher at this time, respect that and then give your advice. Too often people don't actually read what the OP has said--they zoom over it, having already started to form their response in their head.

I've even seen some cases on ABF where the commenter read that the OP said they couldn't afford a teacher, and the commenter suggested the OP really try to save for a teacher. That is such a first-world viewpoint. Like one can always afford stuff by just some scrimping and saving - maybe bring a thermos instead of stopping by Starbucks every morning. Nope. Some people just can't afford a teacher. period. And suggesting that if they save their pennies they can hire a teacher is exactly the teacher-shaming that I referred to above.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: cmb13] #2901600 10/18/19 11:13 AM
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The number one thing I would say when newcomers ask questions is: Listen - ask questions - find out more, really find out. This alone would solve and prevent a lot of problems. It is not common these days, and it is not easy. It is far easier to make a snap judgment, dash off a couple of words, assume "they're all the same" when you've never been in "their" shoes, and to assume that your experience of the music world is how things are. To actually listen, respect, and find out - that takes effort and it's not easy.

Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: keystring] #2901604 10/18/19 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
The number one thing I would say when newcomers ask questions is: Listen - ask questions - find out more, really find out. This alone would solve and prevent a lot of problems. It is not common these days, and it is not easy. It is far easier to make a snap judgment, dash off a couple of words, assume "they're all the same" when you've never been in "their" shoes, and to assume that your experience of the music world is how things are. To actually listen, respect, and find out - that takes effort and it's not easy.

thumb

Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: keystring] #2901608 10/18/19 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
The number one thing I would say when newcomers ask questions is: Listen - ask questions - find out more, really find out. This alone would solve and prevent a lot of problems. It is not common these days, and it is not easy. It is far easier to make a snap judgment, dash off a couple of words, assume "they're all the same" when you've never been in "their" shoes, and to assume that your experience of the music world is how things are. To actually listen, respect, and find out - that takes effort and it's not easy.

Yes thumb good points.


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: keystring] #2901610 10/18/19 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
The number one thing I would say when newcomers ask questions is: Listen - ask questions - find out more, really find out. This alone would solve and prevent a lot of problems. It is not common these days, and it is not easy. It is far easier to make a snap judgment, dash off a couple of words, assume "they're all the same" when you've never been in "their" shoes, and to assume that your experience of the music world is how things are. To actually listen, respect, and find out - that takes effort and it's not easy.


IMHO it depends on the question how much information is needed to answer. If the question is : what fingering would you recommend in measure xx of xxxx

You don’t need to know if they have a teacher. You don’t need to advise ‘ask your teacher or get a teacher’. You don’t need to know how long they have been playing.

If they have a teacher, he/she will also discuss with his teacher. But DISCUSS as a student doesn’t mean you haven’t thought about it independent of the teacher.
All you need to do as a responder is propose a fingering and maybe add the rationale for the approach. That’s all you need to do.


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: dogperson] #2901616 10/18/19 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson

All you need to do as a responder is propose a fingering and maybe add the rationale for the approach. That’s all you need to do.


I don't know.. i think your approach might actually scare away some unknowing newcomers too.

Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: U3piano] #2901626 10/18/19 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by dogperson

All you need to do as a responder is propose a fingering and maybe add the rationale for the approach. That’s all you need to do.


I don't know.. i think your approach might actually scare away some newcomers too.


We can always ask ‘does that answer your question’ ‘is there anything else?’
If I asked a question such as a fingering suggestions, I would be totally turned off by a whole host of questions I needed to answer first. I would probably not return here as I would view this as an entrance exam before I could get a response


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: cmb13] #2901635 10/18/19 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
I've noticed we have some new members posting recently. I think that's great. It will allow for fresh thoughts and ideas, new perspectives, allow some more experienced players to teach the newer ones, enhance the recitals, etc etc.

However, I am bothered that some threads turn into endless debates on the same old topics. How many times do we need to debate that one is best off learning with a teacher, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I believe that to be true, and do feel it is worth mentioning in the relevant threads. But there is a difference between mentioning / suggesting it and debating it for 50 posts per thread.

The same goes for the endless digital vs acoustic, upright vs grand, scale practice, etc. My thought is everyone should have their say and move on, without it turning into an overwhelming argument on new members' threads, akin parents arguing in front of their children.

By keeping the discourse civil and to the point, we can hopefully keep our appeal broad without alienating anyone.

Rant over.



I somewhat agree with the sentiment here. However, this is a **forum** after all. Endless debates and hijacked threads are inevitable. At times, I do wish people would search the forum (or google) to see if their question has been answered - especially when people ask pretty trivial questions. But on a forum, you have the ability to add your own personal perspective to the question you are asking --- "Should I get a teacher?" is different from... "Here's my situation [insert issue, constraints the poster is facing]... is it absolutely necessary to get a teacher or can I address this issue using other resources?" I don't have a problem with the same questions coming up. Most will have a slightly different perspective and stir up new ideas. If I find that not to be the case, I'll ignore the topic and stop engaging in the thread.


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: Stubbie] #2901652 10/18/19 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis

1) If you don't want a teacher, you don't need a teacher. (But see 5 below).
2) If you are not interested in classical, you don't need a teacher. (But if you want to be able to play well, get a teacher).
3) If you just want to have fun on the piano, you definitely don't need a teacher.
4) If you only want to play what you want to play, you definitely don't need a teacher.
5) But if you want to play classical to a high standard, you definitely need a good teacher....
I don't think #1-4 make much sense.

1. To start #1 has a major qualifier in #5 and should also include if you want to play any type of music to a high standard. It could also include many other qualifiers e.g. "If you don't want a teacher but want to progress rapidly and are not doing so, you need a teacher" etc. "Want" and "need" are not very related.

2. Re #2, a fairly high % of good jazz players started with classical and with a teacher. Even jazz players who had little or no formal training often studied informally with each other. Just playing more than intermediate arrangements of e.g. The Great American Songbook requires a technique many could not easily or quickly learn by themselves. For example, I don't think many could play this without having ever had lessons https://www.youtube.com/watch?reloa...ten32zacdp434fvagfg34uh2nz3yc0y1w03c010c

3. Re #4, that would depend on one's definition of "fun".

4. Re #4, if "what you want to play" is advanced you need a teacher.

One group of people who don't need a teacher are those who have studied with a good teacher for a while and are not concerned about reaching significantly higher levels. People who are capable of correctly solving most of the problems in the music they want to play.

Anyone who satisfied with their present level, whether or not they had lessons before, doesn't need a teacher. If one is not satisfied they don't necessarily need a teacher but their progress would usually be slower and more likely to reach a plateau.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/18/19 12:28 PM.
Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: pianoloverus] #2901673 10/18/19 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by bennevis

1) If you don't want a teacher, you don't need a teacher. (But see 5 below).
2) If you are not interested in classical, you don't need a teacher. (But if you want to be able to play well, get a teacher).
3) If you just want to have fun on the piano, you definitely don't need a teacher.
4) If you only want to play what you want to play, you definitely don't need a teacher.
5) But if you want to play classical to a high standard, you definitely need a good teacher....
I don't think #1-4 make much sense.

1. To start #1 has a major qualifier in #5 and should also include if you want to play any type of music to a high standard. It could also include many other qualifiers e.g. "If you don't want a teacher but want to progress rapidly and are not doing so, you need a teacher" etc. "Want" and "need" are not very related.

2. Re #2, a fairly high % of good jazz players started with classical and with a teacher. Even jazz players who had little or no formal training often studied informally with each other. Just playing more than intermediate arrangements of e.g. The Great American Songbook requires a technique many could not easily or quickly learn by themselves. For example, I don't think many could play this without having ever had lessons https://www.youtube.com/watch?reloa...ten32zacdp434fvagfg34uh2nz3yc0y1w03c010c

The Great American Songbook isn't jazz.

BTW, Over the Rainbow is easy enough to learn with Synthesia. It might take a few years, but you don't need a teacher for that....... smirk

Quote
3. Re #4, that would depend on one's definition of "fun".

My definition of fun = enjoyment, amusement, or light-hearted pleasure.

None of which requires studious studying with a studied teacher.


Quote
4. Re #4, if "what you want to play" is advanced you need a teacher.

One group of people who don't need a teacher are those who have studied with a good teacher for a while and are not concerned about reaching significantly higher levels. People who are capable of correctly solving most of the problems in the music they want to play.

Anyone who satisfied with their present level, whether or not they had lessons before, doesn't need a teacher. If one is not satisfied they don't necessarily need a teacher but their progress would usually be slower and more likely to reach a plateau.

I wrote : if you only want to play.....

- which by definition means they're not interested in playing anything else - period. Including beginner pieces, scales or any other stepping stones towards whatever it is the student wants to play.

No teacher worth his salt will try to teach La Campanella or the Hammerklavier to a beginner, so why waste money on one?

Much better to stick with Synthesia yippie wow


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: cmb13] #2901681 10/18/19 01:36 PM
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(edit / added: Bennevis and I wrote concurrently. This is not a response to the previous post. the order is coincidental)

The topic isn't teachers or not, which is why I've stayed away from that. I'll try to explore it with its various sides as well as I can.

Newcomers can be any of these: they've never played any musical instrument; they have played (a) musical instrument(s); they were taught well for a few years on piano and/or another instrument (as children); they were not taught well - and may not know it since you'll only find out when you've seen the alternatives. They may have (started with) a teacher. That teacher may be instructing them appropriately but they're confused because it's not what they pictured and the gap can't be communicated. The teacher may also not know what they are doing, have wrong ideas about teaching adults, there's a mess, the student doesn't know there is, but gut feeling says something is off, or may be following instructions diligently that will dig them ever deeper in a hole.

This is our opening scenario of possibilities. You can't just say, "Aha, that's one of those." and dash off some response, sometimes sadly sarcastic or accusatory. Especially for the confused mistaught student who will crawl into a hole, assume he's wrong and just lacks talent and has an attitude problem. Unless through the manner in which things are stated it's clear that the asker is on top of it and knows what they are asking, you may want to feel your way in .............. or ignore the question if it irks or confuses you.

A good and appropriate teacher is not just for those who want to learn to play classical music at a high level. Enjoyment and independence comes if you know how to move properly; how to produce the sounds you want to produce; how to decipher new music enough that you can get at it relatively easily (whether by reading, by ear, or both). Good music instruction and good music practice is about giving/acquiring ease, and ultimately creating independence in the student. That student won't have to take forever to "learn" each now piece or song. Finding such a teacher is not easy. There is also the problem of recognizing whether a prospective teacher is "a good match" for that. Poor or mediocre teaching may be worse than having no teacher. At least when you're on your own and what you're doing is not working, you can get off that hamster wheel and try something else, and research other resources for answers. There are alternatives and there are, in fact, on-line resources these days, that are pretty good. Some are free: some have an annual fee for a platform with a teacher to answer questions and give feedback; and there are teachers who teach on "Skype". And yes, there is the forum for feedback as well - though if the forum is used as "the exclusive teacher" I think people often resent that (?).

It's not straightforward or black and white. In fact, I feel a level of absurdity to this post, in even trying to set anything out. wink

Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: jotur] #2901682 10/18/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jotur
Originally Posted by earlofmar
I might have to inform the moderators that I am think this endless debate on the subject of endless debates has been high-jacked; once again by the usual culprits smirk


Don't look at me, my attempted hijack to a spinoff of a different hijacked thread didn't work.

(Hi W&P folks!)

I'm not a newbie to this forum but I have no idea what W&P means.
Work and Progress?
Wealthy and Poor?
Wacky and Pianoplaying?

So many questions, so little intelligence on my side...


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Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: patH] #2901686 10/18/19 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by patH
I'm not a newbie to this forum but I have no idea what W&P means.

I'm guessing that it's a game that has its own forum, and has nothing to with piano, but maybe about how forums can go. I'd ignore it. (I did.)

Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: patH] #2901690 10/18/19 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by jotur
Originally Posted by earlofmar
I might have to inform the moderators that I am think this endless debate on the subject of endless debates has been high-jacked; once again by the usual culprits smirk


Don't look at me, my attempted hijack to a spinoff of a different hijacked thread didn't work.

(Hi W&P folks!)

I'm not a newbie to this forum but I have no idea what W&P means.
Work and Progress?
Wealthy and Poor?
Wacky and Pianoplaying?

So many questions, so little intelligence on my side...

Omg isn’t it obvious? War and Peace!! smile


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Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Chopin Nocturne E min
Bach Inventions

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Endless Debates / Hijacked Threads [Re: patH] #2901691 10/18/19 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by jotur
Originally Posted by earlofmar
I might have to inform the moderators that I am think this endless debate on the subject of endless debates has been high-jacked; once again by the usual culprits smirk
Don't look at me, my attempted hijack to a spinoff of a different hijacked thread didn't work.

(Hi W&P folks!)
I'm not a newbie to this forum but I have no idea what W&P means.
Work and Progress?
Wealthy and Poor?
Wacky and Pianoplaying?

So many questions, so little intelligence on my side...

Some of us on this forum formed an online reading circle for Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace (W&P) novel. 📜

Everyone and anyone welcome! smile


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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