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Hey!

We will soon, I hope, have a new W&P person. I've encourage them to introduce themselves to the W&P group, but for the moment they are stealth reading 😎

I don't want to hijack this spellbinding thread. So I will post over on the W&P thread.

Okay, but don't forget, the price of admission is one Tchaikovsky piece (or similar)...

To this I would add a no. 6:

If the OP says he or she can't afford a teacher at this time, respect that and then give your advice. Too often people don't actually read what the OP has said--they zoom over it, having already started to form their response in their head.


Agree here. Yes, the same thing gets discussed over and over again, for a good reason. And if you are sick and tired of reading the same stories of whomever's experience in their response, then do what I do--skip over them.

I've even seen some cases on ABF where the commenter read that the OP said they couldn't afford a teacher, and the commenter suggested the OP really try to save for a teacher. That is such a first-world viewpoint. Like one can always afford stuff by just some scrimping and saving - maybe bring a thermos instead of stopping by Starbucks every morning. Nope. Some people just can't afford a teacher. period. And suggesting that if they save their pennies they can hire a teacher is exactly the teacher-shaming that I referred to above.

The number one thing I would say when newcomers ask questions is: Listen - ask questions - find out more, really find out. This alone would solve and prevent a lot of problems. It is not common these days, and it is not easy. It is far easier to make a snap judgment, dash off a couple of words, assume "they're all the same" when you've never been in "their" shoes, and to assume that your experience of the music world is how things are. To actually listen, respect, and find out - that takes effort and it's not easy.

Yes good points.

IMHO it depends on the question how much information is needed to answer. If the question is : what fingering would you recommend in measure xx of xxxx

You don’t need to know if they have a teacher. You don’t need to advise ‘ask your teacher or get a teacher’. You don’t need to know how long they have been playing.

If they have a teacher, he/she will also discuss with his teacher. But DISCUSS as a student doesn’t mean you haven’t thought about it independent of the teacher.
All you need to do as a responder is propose a fingering and maybe add the rationale for the approach. That’s all you need to do.

I don't know.. i think your approach might actually scare away some unknowing newcomers too.

We can always ask ‘does that answer your question’ ‘is there anything else?’
If I asked a question such as a fingering suggestions, I would be totally turned off by a whole host of questions I needed to answer first. I would probably not return here as I would view this as an entrance exam before I could get a response

I somewhat agree with the sentiment here. However, this is a **forum** after all. Endless debates and hijacked threads are inevitable. At times, I do wish people would search the forum (or google) to see if their question has been answered - especially when people ask pretty trivial questions. But on a forum, you have the ability to add your own personal perspective to the question you are asking --- "Should I get a teacher?" is different from... "Here's my situation [insert issue, constraints the poster is facing]... is it absolutely necessary to get a teacher or can I address this issue using other resources?" I don't have a problem with the same questions coming up. Most will have a slightly different perspective and stir up new ideas. If I find that not to be the case, I'll ignore the topic and stop engaging in the thread.

I don't think #1-4 make much sense.

1. To start #1 has a major qualifier in #5 and should also include if you want to play any type of music to a high standard. It could also include many other qualifiers e.g. "If you don't want a teacher but want to progress rapidly and are not doing so, you need a teacher" etc. "Want" and "need" are not very related.

2. Re #2, a fairly high % of good jazz players started with classical and with a teacher. Even jazz players who had little or no formal training often studied informally with each other. Just playing more than intermediate arrangements of e.g. The Great American Songbook requires a technique many could not easily or quickly learn by themselves. For example, I don't think many could play this without having ever had lessons https://www.youtube.com/watch?reloa...ten32zacdp434fvagfg34uh2nz3yc0y1w03c010c

3. Re #4, that would depend on one's definition of "fun".

4. Re #4, if "what you want to play" is advanced you need a teacher.

One group of people who don't need a teacher are those who have studied with a good teacher for a while and are not concerned about reaching significantly higher levels. People who are capable of correctly solving most of the problems in the music they want to play.

Anyone who satisfied with their present level, whether or not they had lessons before, doesn't need a teacher. If one is not satisfied they don't necessarily need a teacher but their progress would usually be slower and more likely to reach a plateau.

The Great American Songbook isn't jazz.

BTW, Over the Rainbow is easy enough to learn with Synthesia. It might take a few years, but you don't need a teacher for that.......


My definition of fun = enjoyment, amusement, or light-hearted pleasure.

None of which requires studious studying with a studied teacher.



I wrote : if you only want to play.....

- which by definition means they're not interested in playing anything else - period. Including beginner pieces, scales or any other stepping stones towards whatever it is the student wants to play.

No teacher worth his salt will try to teach La Campanella or the Hammerklavier to a beginner, so why waste money on one?

Much better to stick with Synthesia

(edit / added: Bennevis and I wrote concurrently. This is not a response to the previous post. the order is coincidental)

The topic isn't teachers or not, which is why I've stayed away from that. I'll try to explore it with its various sides as well as I can.

Newcomers can be any of these: they've never played any musical instrument; they have played (a) musical instrument(s); they were taught well for a few years on piano and/or another instrument (as children); they were not taught well - and may not know it since you'll only find out when you've seen the alternatives. They may have (started with) a teacher. That teacher may be instructing them appropriately but they're confused because it's not what they pictured and the gap can't be communicated. The teacher may also not know what they are doing, have wrong ideas about teaching adults, there's a mess, the student doesn't know there is, but gut feeling says something is off, or may be following instructions diligently that will dig them ever deeper in a hole.

This is our opening scenario of possibilities. You can't just say, "Aha, that's one of those." and dash off some response, sometimes sadly sarcastic or accusatory. Especially for the confused mistaught student who will crawl into a hole, assume he's wrong and just lacks talent and has an attitude problem. Unless through the manner in which things are stated it's clear that the asker is on top of it and knows what they are asking, you may want to feel your way in .............. or ignore the question if it irks or confuses you.

A good and appropriate teacher is not just for those who want to learn to play classical music at a high level. Enjoyment and independence comes if you know how to move properly; how to produce the sounds you want to produce; how to decipher new music enough that you can get at it relatively easily (whether by reading, by ear, or both). Good music instruction and good music practice is about giving/acquiring ease, and ultimately creating independence in the student. That student won't have to take forever to "learn" each now piece or song. Finding such a teacher is not easy. There is also the problem of recognizing whether a prospective teacher is "a good match" for that. Poor or mediocre teaching may be worse than having no teacher. At least when you're on your own and what you're doing is not working, you can get off that hamster wheel and try something else, and research other resources for answers. There are alternatives and there are, in fact, on-line resources these days, that are pretty good. Some are free: some have an annual fee for a platform with a teacher to answer questions and give feedback; and there are teachers who teach on "Skype". And yes, there is the forum for feedback as well - though if the forum is used as "the exclusive teacher" I think people often resent that (?).

It's not straightforward or black and white. In fact, I feel a level of absurdity to this post, in even trying to set anything out.

I'm not a newbie to this forum but I have no idea what W&P means.
Work and Progress?
Wealthy and Poor?
Wacky and Pianoplaying?

So many questions, so little intelligence on my side...

I'm guessing that it's a game that has its own forum, and has nothing to with piano, but maybe about how forums can go. I'd ignore it. (I did.)

Omg isn’t it obvious? War and Peace!!

Some of us on this forum formed an online reading circle for Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace (W&P) novel. 📜

Everyone and anyone welcome!