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Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 #2901069 10/17/19 02:39 AM
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I just took delivery of a new Kawai CA98, an upgrade from a Yamaha 635 and am a bit worried about the keyboard. The issues are threefold

1) the gaps between and heights of the keys are very uneven. The delivery driver said this would “settle” and the man in the shop said with wooden keyboards you have to expect such things, but it seems like a head pat and off you go kind of answer

2) some of the black keys are wonky - actually on a diagonal in the space they’re supposed to occupy rather than being nice and straight. Also the cutouts in the white keys are pretty haphazard - some diagonal, some curved, most admittedly perfectly straight. Again I was told this is “within tolerance” (though not within mine)

3) there’s a lot of sideways movement in the keys - I mean loads. If you pop your finger on the top of the key you can wobble it like a child’s tooth before it falls out. I think this is bizarre too. I didn’t notice it in the shop (I spent 90 minutes in there)

Am I being a bit over anxious? I know that the wooden keyboard will be very different from the plastic one on my old piano but I was hoping for some finesse, I suppose. It’s not a cheap digital and I would be pretty disappointed if these rough edges were acceptable.

Thanks.

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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901086 10/17/19 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Spannah
I just took delivery of a new Kawai CA98, an upgrade from a Yamaha 635 and am a bit worried about the keyboard. The issues are threefold

1) the gaps between and heights of the keys are very uneven. The delivery driver said this would “settle” and the man in the shop said with wooden keyboards you have to expect such things, but it seems like a head pat and off you go kind of answer

Yes, it sounds like a "don't bother us" answer. Slightly uneven gaps between are indeed not uncommon. But an unevenness in height is not normal. At least not if it is an unevenness that you can feel when sweeping your fingers over the keys. The keyboard should feel perfectly level. Just to rule out that the keys simply slid out of place a bit, have you tried depressing and releasing each key a few times? Does that settle the unevenness in height? If not, then I would not accept this as "normal" but would demand a fix or replacement (if none is offered, I would return the piano and get it from a different seller).

Originally Posted by Spannah
2) some of the black keys are wonky - actually on a diagonal in the space they’re supposed to occupy rather than being nice and straight. Also the cutouts in the white keys are pretty haphazard - some diagonal, some curved, most admittedly perfectly straight. Again I was told this is “within tolerance” (though not within mine)

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you have a pic?

Originally Posted by Spannah
3) there’s a lot of sideways movement in the keys - I mean loads. If you pop your finger on the top of the key you can wobble it like a child’s tooth before it falls out. I think this is bizarre too. I didn’t notice it in the shop (I spent 90 minutes in there)

Such textual descriptions are difficult to gauge, but from my interpretation of "a child's tooth before it falls out" I would say that this too is not normal. I had the CA97, which has the same keyboard, and I do not remember even noticing much of a sideways play. Certainly not as much as I imagine it must be from this description.

Also I can confirm that, on my CA97, the keyboard did indeed convey that feeling of "some finesse" and not having "rough edges" that you are looking for.

All in all, it really sounds as if something is wrong with your piano's keys. Don't settle for that "pat on the head" but demand to have it fixed/replaced. To alleviate any doubt you may have, you can check another unit in the shop, to confirm that your's is indeed different.

EDIT: If the seller is difficult, it may be a good idea to get Kawai support involved (exactly how depends on your location).

Last edited by JoBert; 10/17/19 03:37 AM.
Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901088 10/17/19 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Spannah
I just took delivery of a new Kawai CA98, an upgrade from a Yamaha 635 and am a bit worried about the keyboard. The issues are threefold

1) the gaps between and heights of the keys are very uneven. The delivery driver said this would “settle” and the man in the shop said with wooden keyboards you have to expect such things, but it seems like a head pat and off you go kind of answer

2) some of the black keys are wonky - actually on a diagonal in the space they’re supposed to occupy rather than being nice and straight. Also the cutouts in the white keys are pretty haphazard - some diagonal, some curved, most admittedly perfectly straight. Again I was told this is “within tolerance” (though not within mine)

3) there’s a lot of sideways movement in the keys - I mean loads. If you pop your finger on the top of the key you can wobble it like a child’s tooth before it falls out. I think this is bizarre too. I didn’t notice it in the shop (I spent 90 minutes in there)

Am I being a bit over anxious? I know that the wooden keyboard will be very different from the plastic one on my old piano but I was hoping for some finesse, I suppose. It’s not a cheap digital and I would be pretty disappointed if these rough edges were acceptable.

Thanks.


In relation to 1, I think in relation to the height you need to give it a few days to see if they settle. If it doesn't then I think you have a reason to be concerned. Looking at my keys end on (GF not GFII) the heights are the same but the gaps are all uneven but I think that is normal. Two white keys should not touch though and mine don't.

In relation to 2, the black keys being on a diagonal sounds wrong. I've just looked at my keyboard (GF not GFII) and I don't notice any diagonal keys. I'm not looking overly closely. The cutouts on the white keys for the black look pretty even to me. This issue of the 3 seems most concerning to me.

In relation to 3, I do have a reasonable amount of sideways movement but I think within tolerance, without you sharing a short video it is hard to judge if yous is excessive or not.

If possible you could go back to the shop with a video of what is happening, and then try out the model in store and see how it compares. If your comparison proves your model at home is significantly different you can show the difference to the person in the shop there and then.

I do 100% know the feeling of wanting your new piano to be just right. It is hard in that situation to find the right balance between acceptable tolerance and not.

Last edited by KevinM; 10/17/19 03:41 AM.
Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901090 10/17/19 03:54 AM
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Thank you ever so much for the quick responses. To clarify:

@JoBert - I spent most of yesterday afternoon playing and made sure to press down the particularly offending key. You can both see and feel that one is significantly higher than the others and the rest aren't smooth and even.

I don't know how to attach pictures (am brand new here) but if you imagine a black key should run in the middle of its cutout with even(ish) gaps on either side, there is one that runs from the top right to bottom left - on a very odd angle - now admittedly it's small because the space a black key occupies is small but it's just not straight.

@KevinM thanks for your comments. We think that the wonky keys and wobbly cutouts are the real tell that this keyboard is substandard, particularly on something that is £££ (though frankly I wouldn't accept it on a cheap keyboard either).

It's not particularly easy to get to the shop as it's a good hour away from me - I went there because they had all the brands under one roof so I could compare side by side and because they seemed keen to help. Fortunately there is another stockist of just Kawai nearby so I can go and take a look at what is normal on this piano.

Thanks for helping me feel this isn't all in my head.

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901093 10/17/19 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Spannah
I don't know how to attach pictures (am brand new here)

You can upload the pics over here. Then take the URL links to the pics you posted and place the URL link between a pair of img tags: [img] and [/img]. Make sure the url link ends in a graphics image file type like ".jpg" or ".png".


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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901100 10/17/19 04:56 AM
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It almost sounds as though you bought a (very) used piano.
Where did you purchase it?

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: MacMacMac] #2901101 10/17/19 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It almost sound as though you bought a (very) used piano.
Where did you purchase it?


It’s brand spanking new right out of the box. Bought from somewhere with a v good reputation.

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901121 10/17/19 07:00 AM
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If it's 'right out of the box', it's likely direct from factory, never been opened in the store, why would they? They just receive it, store it, and ship it when a customer buys. The one you tried in the store is a 'store model'. So, the store is likely completely unaware of this. Contact them immediately. If they have a good reputation, it should be a snap to get a new one, and the faulty one picked up.
Sounds like somebody had a real bad Monday in the factory LOL (sorry, it's not funny for you of course)

Last edited by Jytte; 10/17/19 07:02 AM.

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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Jytte] #2901224 10/17/19 11:05 AM
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Or even at deliv
Originally Posted by Jytte
If it's 'right out of the box', it's likely direct from factory, never been opened in the store, why would they? They just receive it, store it, and ship it when a customer buys. The one you tried in the store is a 'store model'. So, the store is likely completely unaware of this. Contact them immediately. If they have a good reputation, it should be a snap to get a new one, and the faulty one picked up.
Sounds like somebody had a real bad Monday in the factory LOL (sorry, it's not funny for you of course)


Or perhaps even bad day at shipping...


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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901454 10/17/19 11:02 PM
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Hello Spannah,

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to read that you have some concerns with your new piano.

My recommendation would be to visit the local Kawai dealer to check their showroom CA98/CA78 instruments, and perhaps raise the concerns that you have with your instrument.
If you believe there is a significant difference between the showroom instrument and the piano that you received, I would suggest contacting the dealer (that sold you the piano) and requesting assistance.

If you are not satisfied with the response provided to you by the dealer, the next step would be to contact Kawai UK directly:

https://www.kawai.co.uk/support/contactus/

Fingers crossed this matter can be resolved promptly.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901562 10/18/19 09:47 AM
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OK so I went to the local showroom yesterday and had a look and a play around and noticed some unevenness and lateral play in the keys, though not as much as mine but the keys all seemed fairly straight.

The raised key at the top of the keyboard seems to be just as high as it was when it arrived, and the gaps are all higgledy-piggledy and frankly an enormous mess.

What I noticed today is that the B flat key that is angled catches slightly on the A next to it. I called the shop and was told that it'll "settle" and that I need to give it a few weeks to do so. None of this was said to me when I bought it, and frankly I'm getting rather annoyed. Even my grandad's ancient cheap upright that could only stay in tune for 15 minutes didn't have rubbing keys.

I am also slightly concerned that they keep talking about taking it to Kawai. My contract is with the people who sold it to me, not with the manufacturer and I'm concerned that they are ticking down the clock having sold me a total lemon. I don't want to have people traipsing in and out to try to repair it when it's clearly not right, I want a new piano that isn't a bit rubbish.

I've attached pictures but cannot work out how to link them properly here - http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2901560.html#Post2901560

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901566 10/18/19 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Spannah
OK so I went to the local showroom yesterday and had a look and a play around and noticed some unevenness and lateral play in the keys, though not as much as mine but the keys all seemed fairly straight.

The raised key at the top of the keyboard seems to be just as high as it was when it arrived, and the gaps are all higgledy-piggledy and frankly an enormous mess.

What I noticed today is that the B flat key that is angled catches slightly on the A next to it. I called the shop and was told that it'll "settle" and that I need to give it a few weeks to do so. None of this was said to me when I bought it, and frankly I'm getting rather annoyed. Even my grandad's ancient cheap upright that could only stay in tune for 15 minutes didn't have rubbing keys.

I am also slightly concerned that they keep talking about taking it to Kawai. My contract is with the people who sold it to me, not with the manufacturer and I'm concerned that they are ticking down the clock having sold me a total lemon. I don't want to have people traipsing in and out to try to repair it when it's clearly not right, I want a new piano that isn't a bit rubbish.

I've attached pictures but cannot work out how to link them properly here - http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2901560.html#Post2901560


Looking at your photos, the gaps don't look out of the ordinary to me. That angled black key is just wrong. That by itself is enough for them to take your concerns seriously and yes you are 100% right they are responsible for dealing with getting it sorted.

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901569 10/18/19 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Spannah
I've attached pictures but cannot work out how to link them properly here - http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2901560.html#Post2901560

These are your pics:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This is a clearly broken piano. It's bad. Really bad. Please call the store/distributor right away. This is not a "settling" issue. It's a "broken piano" issue.

That first pic is .... just sad.

3rd pic doesn't look horrible, but 2nd pic clearly shows keys are not level. That's bad.


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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901596 10/18/19 11:01 AM
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I agree, for what it's worth. The general key spacings are typical of wooden-keyed Kawais. As long as nothing rubs it's okay. But the uneven key height would drive me mad, as would the wonky black key. So I think there's every reason to feel disappointed. Kawai is usually very good at sorting this kind of thing out so give them a chance.


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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901606 10/18/19 11:18 AM
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I don't find the spacings, angle, uneven heights at all acceptable, given the price and market branding of the CA98. Maybe it was a shop floor model? You need to take this up with the seller in the same way you have here. Polite assertiveness.

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901618 10/18/19 11:35 AM
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Is it wrong to be flattered at being considered politely assertive.

Every time I speak to the shop I am told it takes time for wooden keyboards to settle. This does make sense but what doesn’t is that settling will cause an angled key to become straight. If it were offset I might buy it (with a healthy degree of scepticism) but the angle righting itself is just nonsense imo.

I’m UK based and we have pretty good consumer rights laws, especially in the first 30 days after purchase, which is also why the wait-and-see line doesn’t work well for me because it just runs down the clock.

They have offered to have an inspector from Kawai come to inspect it, but as it’s a 2 day old instrument and it’s clearly faulty I rather think they should give me a not broken one and have this one inspected at their warehouse.

I’m actually gutted. I was so excited to get this new piano - playing is something I do to aid a variety of exhausting and boring mental health issues - and this with it’s clear faults and the patronising from the dealer has just taken all the shine off for me. I don’t even want to sit down and play it because all I can see is that wonky black key (it’s the B flat above middle C so bang in front of me) so I can’t do my self soothing.

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901633 10/18/19 11:55 AM
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Adding to the chorus, the first picture of the black key look very incorrect. I wonder if having the Kawai tech come out is perhaps your best option. I can understand the shop wanting to be sure of the problem before they have to eat the cost of transporting another piano as much as I can understand your frustration and disappointment with a clearly defective brand new expensive piano and wanting what you paid for.

I will say that my experience with Kawai here in the US was incredibly responsive and when I had an issue they were on the phone with me within a day, and from forum chat it sounds like the UK office has been similarly responsive. Given the push back from the shop, it sounds like getting Kawai involved is important.

Here's to hoping you have a speedy resolution and can enjoy your new piano soon!

Last edited by Chrispy; 10/18/19 11:57 AM.

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Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2901640 10/18/19 12:05 PM
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You pay good money. You deserve a good product.
That piano needs work. Demand it!

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Chrispy] #2901658 10/18/19 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
I wonder if having the Kawai tech come out is perhaps your best option. I can understand the shop wanting to be sure of the problem before they have to eat the cost of transporting another piano as much as I can understand your frustration and disappointment with a clearly defective brand new expensive piano and wanting what you paid for.


My issue with this is that everyone can clearly see that there is a fault, it doesn't need an engineer to come out to confirm what the fault is or the nature of the fault, or to suggest how to fix the fault so it is entirely unnecessary. Added to that the hassle of having to ensure someone is here to deal with the engineer as well as the subsequent removal/replacement of the piano is just annoying.

Had the piano developed a fault I would absolutely be willing to have an engineer come to look at it, but this was delivered with the fault. I think that makes quite a difference.

The shop are going to have to bear the cost of removing this piano regardless of whether they send an engineer out or not. Within the first 30 days of ownership under UK consumer law I am entitled to a replacement or a refund - I absolutely do not have to accept any attempts at repair - so they're going to have to come out anyway. At this stage they have to work out whether it's in their best interests to retain my custom and replace or continue to be difficult and have me demand a refund in accordance with my statutory rights.

Re: Keyboard issues on Kawai CA98 [Re: Spannah] #2903011 10/22/19 07:32 AM
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Hi

I thought I would put my experience in here.

I bought a CA78 from a reputable seller B****S music.

I reported a slightly out of line keyboard to the frame.
Within 2 days of reporting an appointment had been booked for a brand new piano to be delivered by a Kawai Technician
who took away the original piano, set up a new one, fully tested it, answered all my queries then left.

I asked about the key gaps and they do develop over time with Kawai, especially when the piano is played more heavily in one area.
True to their word gaps have developed here and there but whilst a bit unsightly have caused no issues.

The keys are put together in several 'banks' of keys apparently so the small gaps can develop between the banks.

I am hoping you have received the same outstanding service. If not feel free to use my experience as a reference. you will find a record of the event in my posts.

Best Wishes

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