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Impact Method....without Impact Hammer? #2901223
10/17/19 11:04 AM
10/17/19 11:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 215
Minto, NB Canada
Duaner Offline OP
Full Member
Duaner  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 215
Minto, NB Canada
Some might recall that I put a post in about a particular "new" Yamaha vertical I have been tuning with what I call "Jumpy Tuning Pins" which is not an exaggerated title. I would say with some accuracy that 40% of the pins "SNAP" or jump ahead (at least 8 - 12 cents) when I turn them to position. Even when I go backward with them first they will snap back sometimes then snap ahead but not always after the backward procedure is applied first. That piano is a nightmare experience. I've done it three times now and if she wasn't such a good customer I'd quit tuning it before a pin breaks in two pieces.

Anyway, I said all that to say I went back and read my post and subsequent replies again (never thought of it till after the new tuning yesterday.....that's on me). I am hopeful that it will come out of it as it is scary especially for the piano owner who was very very concerned yesterday when I tuned it as she kept hearing the "Snap".

So in my previous post there was good advice about backing the jumping pins up and slowly fiddling with them back and forth in a lower tone (1/2 step low or so) but also some (many) of the replies spoke of an "Impact Method" that I should apply "without" using an impact hammer. The indication was that I could find much teaching on the subject via u-tube videos but there is none to be found as far as I can see. So do any of you have access to such a video(s) for training purposes so I can possibly try that when I come to Jumpy Pins in the future?


Duane Graves


"Pushin 70...still haven fun I think..."
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Re: Impact Method....without Impact Hammer? [Re: Duaner] #2901497
10/18/19 06:27 AM
10/18/19 06:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,022
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
6000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,022
Bradford County, PA
Duane, I don't remember you responding to my posts, but you probably read them and others probably do, too. smile

Others are a fan of impact tuning, I am not. Super tight, jumpy pin are a challenge, but there is something about them that allows a technique not available with normal pins. You have probably noticed that with a smooth pull the pitch goes up and up and up and suddenly you hear and feel that snap as the foot of the pin breaks free and the built up torsion of the pin relieves itself. Of course if you started just a little below pitch you are now WAAAY above pitch. The foot of the pin has moved too far! But what is a tuner to do?

First, you can start by knocking the pitch way down. Then use a smooth pull until the foot breaks free and you have more control of what is going on. Keep the torque on the pin and bring it up to where you think the pin belongs, a fair amount above pitch, so that when you set the pin (a many faceted procedure) you can have a stable string that is also on pitch.

Alternately you can use a jerking style, akin to an impact method, to get the foot of the pin where you think it belongs. I use a heavy hammer and will apply a moderate amount of torque and then give it a "jerk" to move the foot of the pin. I think the extra mass of the hammer helps.

Now here is where you can benefit from having overly tight pins. The foot of the pin does not need to be in a precise position for the string to be stable as a looser pin needs to be. You can "bury" quite a bit of the residual twist of the pin in the pin block. At the same time you render the string, gaining a bit more tension in the non-speaking length to help insure stability. It's a many faceted procedure.

Here's another way to explain it. Get the foot of the pin in the ball park, then manipulate the rest of the pin to get an on-pitch, stable tuning.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Impact Method....without Impact Hammer? [Re: Duaner] #2901837
10/18/19 06:48 PM
10/18/19 06:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 215
Minto, NB Canada
Duaner Offline OP
Full Member
Duaner  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 215
Minto, NB Canada
Thanks, Jeff. I do appreciate your comments always. I may not respond as you say but I have tried to PM you but you are blocked from that. As a matter of fact I have applied some of your stuff with success. I think of your comments on "tubby bass strings" and your procedure of lowering them and hammer-strike them 6-8 time (or more) to clean them and make them sound brighter. I have done this and I remember on mini-grand in particular that this worked satisfactorily for me. So, just to say when it's obviously good advice I (we) try it.

As to these snapping-pins I will study your comments more thoroughly and apply what I think I can understand. I do think that these pins on said piano can be helped but I think that backing them to a very low spot then slowly turning them back and forth several times is the only solution. This will be a long tuning for sure as there are so many on this piano.

Thank you, take care....Duane.


Duane Graves


"Pushin 70...still haven fun I think..."
Re: Impact Method....without Impact Hammer? [Re: Duaner] #2902994
10/22/19 06:14 AM
10/22/19 06:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,022
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
6000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,022
Bradford County, PA
Thanks for the reply. Hope the method of exercising the pin works for you. I've tried it a little and it seems to help some for that tuning, but doesn't seem long lasting. My though is that all it really does is warm up and soften the glaze formed when the pins were drilled or installed. Like many on-the-spot remedies they don't seem worth the effort. It's often best to just stand pat and play the hand you're dealt.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Impact Method....without Impact Hammer? [Re: Duaner] #2904244
10/24/19 10:23 PM
10/24/19 10:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 349
Minnesota
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member
Robert Scott  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 349
Minnesota
In think the impact method (with an actual impact hammer) is mostly for reducing wear and tear on the human body - especially when tuning verticals. I don't know about any advantages for jumpy pins beyond that. To use the impact method without an impact hammer would probably involve relying on the looseness of the fit between the tuning hammer and pins. But this looseness is not very controllable, depending on how well you seat the tip on the pin. A real impact hammer has a built-in consistent and well-controlled looseness that will behave the same every time. If you need an impact hammer for physiological reasons, it might be best to spend the money and get a real one. Many technicians have had to leave the profession earlier than they would like because of damage to their arms and shoulders.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Impact Method....without Impact Hammer? [Re: Duaner] #2905264
10/27/19 05:11 PM
10/27/19 05:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,646
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,646
New Hampshire
Duane,

Try this basic technique:

https://youtu.be/XY3a7rPY99E

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8

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