Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
134 registered members (Akaitsuki, AndrewJCW, astrotoy, Alan F, AaronSF, Ankee, AlphaBravoCharlie, AWilley, ando, 32 invisible), 2,178 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions #2900165
10/14/19 02:02 PM
10/14/19 02:02 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline OP
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline OP
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
[Linked Image]

In this Intermezzo, in the left hand broken chords (intervals), do you play the first note on the beat or the second note on the beat? Or, are they played so closely to one another that it's almost imperceptible?

When it comes to a broken chord in the left with a solid chord in the right, do you play the right hand chord with the first note in the left or with the second? I've listened on YouTube, evening slowing down the videos, but can't determine which seems to be the accepted way. Is it not tradition with Romantic-era music that broken and rolled chords end on the beat, not start on the beat?

What's your opinion?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900174
10/14/19 02:21 PM
10/14/19 02:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
I have not played this piece but am learning opus 76 no 1 at the moment. I was taught to play the chords so they end on the beat. My teacher also told me to listen to this version by Pogorelich. I'm not sure if it applies to your piece but it is the same opus and composer so that would be what i do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sES-n3z0zRo

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900176
10/14/19 02:24 PM
10/14/19 02:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
Also Bruce I thought you played opus 117. no 2. it was your suggestion why brought the opus and i played opus 117 no 2. this i remembered has broken chords in also. so why the doubt with this piece?

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: Moo :)] #2900182
10/14/19 02:46 PM
10/14/19 02:46 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline OP
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline OP
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Also Bruce I thought you played opus 117. no 2. it was your suggestion why brought the opus and i played opus 117 no 2. this i remembered has broken chords in also. so why the doubt with this piece?


There are only five broken (arpeggiated) chords in the Op. 117, No. 2(each repeated: measures 24 and 25, and measures 32 and 33) and only one in each iteration coincides with a left hand single note.

This is a totally different context and a different interpretive challenge. In the Op. 117, No. 2 the arpeggiated chords are in the right hand, ending on a melody note, so evidently the melody note is on the beat.

In the Op. 76, No. 3, melody notes in the right hand should end on the beat whether or not the right hand is a broken or solid chord, but what does one do about the broken intervals in the left? Does the first left-hand note start on the beat with the right hand, or does the second note of the left hand end on the beat with the right hand melody note?

Surely the context of the two Intermezzi is totally different. At least, it is to me; hence my query.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900185
10/14/19 02:58 PM
10/14/19 02:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
If you have a listen to the link I have given for opus 76 no 1 above by pogorelich there are lot of left hand broken chords on the first beats. It is quite a slow version of this so probably it may help you They are big chords with 4 notes in whereas you link only has 2 so it may not matter so much if there are only 2 notes as i'm not sure you can hear much difference. I was however taught to play these rolling chords before the beat.

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900186
10/14/19 03:00 PM
10/14/19 03:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
M
Moo :) Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Moo :)  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,213
Maybe ask your teacher. I'm not too sure about your piece as I've never played it before

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900196
10/14/19 03:57 PM
10/14/19 03:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,507
Dublin
johnstaf Online crying
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Online Crying
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,507
Dublin
I'd start on the beat. In the RH I'd end on the beat. This way the bass and melody notes both occur on the beat. In my head, and when playing, it makes a difference, but I'm not sure I could tell the difference if I heard you playing it, especially in this piece.


Last edited by johnstaf; 10/14/19 04:03 PM.
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900200
10/14/19 04:07 PM
10/14/19 04:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,479
New York
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,479
New York
I think that in general, there's no in general. grin
It varies, and it's a matter of taste

Many would say it's not a matter of taste, there's a right way, and in many cases probably there are, but IMO not here.

About the first chord: Without a doubt I'd make the second note (i.e. upper) be on the beat.

And as to:

Quote
When it comes to a broken chord in the left with a solid chord in the right, do you play the right hand chord with the first note in the left or with the second?

Again a matter of taste, but again I have no doubt what I'd do:
I'd play the right hand chord with whichever left hand note I give the greater emphasis, which usually means whichever left hand note I play on the beat (or on a stronger part of the beat, if neither note is on the beat).

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900529
10/15/19 04:38 PM
10/15/19 04:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,020
Santa Fe, NM
AaronSF Online content
1000 Post Club Member
AaronSF  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,020
Santa Fe, NM
See this thread for even more detailed info:

Rolling Arpeggiated Chords

In this Brahms intermezzo I play the arpeggiated (rolled) notes so they end on the beat. (I think this is generally applicable to all late Romantic piano music.) Playing the 2-note rolled chord on the beat would give the music a choppy sound, IMO.

Chopin, being early Romantic, is a little different (sometimes on the beat, sometimes not), but in all my editions (Henle, Cortot, Polish National, Schirmer, etc.) the editor almost always indicates whether the arpeggiated chord should begin or end on the beat. Same with Mozart.


August Förster 215
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: AaronSF] #2900551
10/15/19 05:55 PM
10/15/19 05:55 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline OP
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline OP
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by AaronSF
[...]
In this Brahms intermezzo I play the arpeggiated (rolled) notes so they end on the beat. (I think this is generally applicable to all late Romantic piano music.) Playing the 2-note rolled chord on the beat would give the music a choppy sound, IMO.

[...]


After some experimentation, that's what I have been doing: ending the broken chord on the beat. I don't think my teacher will say otherwise.

Thanks for the responses.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900558
10/15/19 06:15 PM
10/15/19 06:15 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,954
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,954
New York City
I have a different question about this piece. When one listens to performances it sounds like the RH chords are on the beat, but Brahms writes those chords on the "and" part of each beat. Why does he write it that way?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/15/19 06:17 PM.
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900600
10/15/19 08:55 PM
10/15/19 08:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 169
Detroit
F
Fidel Offline
Full Member
Fidel  Offline
Full Member
F

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 169
Detroit
Had no idea this piece existed till I saw this post.

Read through it today. Devastatingly delightful! So lovely. Due to the syncopation I felt playing the LH low note on the beat made it easier to follow. This intermezzo is hyper musical so just about any take is enjoyable.

I'll ask my teacher about learning this one.


"the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." -- Chaucer.
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: pianoloverus] #2900904
10/16/19 02:53 PM
10/16/19 02:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,020
Santa Fe, NM
AaronSF Online content
1000 Post Club Member
AaronSF  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,020
Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I have a different question about this piece. When one listens to performances it sounds like the RH chords are on the beat, but Brahms writes those chords on the "and" part of each beat. Why does he write it that way?


I think putting the melody on the off-beat is intended to keep the melody light and airy. Try playing it on the beat and see what happens...it becomes heavier, denser. The arpeggiated chords are both on and off the beat, so I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding them.


August Förster 215
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: BruceD] #2900923
10/16/19 03:37 PM
10/16/19 03:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 405
S
Sidokar Offline
Full Member
Sidokar  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 405
[quote=BruceD]

In this Intermezzo, in the left hand broken chords (intervals), do you play the first note on the beat or the second note on the beat? Or, are they played so closely to one another that it's almost imperceptible?

When it comes to a broken chord in the left with a solid chord in the right, do you play the right hand chord with the first note in the left or with the second? I've listened on YouTube, evening slowing down the videos, but can't determine which seems to be the accepted way. Is it not tradition with Romantic-era music that broken and rolled chords end on the beat, not start on the beat?

What's your opinion?

Regards, [/qu

I would play the first note of the left hand on the beat. That left hand is essentially based on a double pedal point on the tonic and dominant, sometimes together and sometimes only one of the 2. In bar 2 it is a tonic pedal point. So I would want to have that foundation right on the beat. That said practically at speed it is not even noticeable as both are played in very fast succession.

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: AaronSF] #2900964
10/16/19 05:06 PM
10/16/19 05:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,954
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,954
New York City
Originally Posted by AaronSF
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I have a different question about this piece. When one listens to performances it sounds like the RH chords are on the beat, but Brahms writes those chords on the "and" part of each beat. Why does he write it that way?


I think putting the melody on the off-beat is intended to keep the melody light and airy. Try playing it on the beat and see what happens...it becomes heavier, denser. The arpeggiated chords are both on and off the beat, so I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding them.
I don't think playing the RH on the beat makes the melody sound any different. When I say playing on the beat I mean imagining that Brahms made the first LH eighth note in the piece an upbeat and then started the next eighth on the first beat of the next measure. In pro recordings I think it sounds the way I just described it.

My question refers to parts like the first few measures.

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: Sidokar] #2900983
10/16/19 05:58 PM
10/16/19 05:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,507
Dublin
johnstaf Online crying
2000 Post Club Member
johnstaf  Online Crying
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,507
Dublin
Originally Posted by Sidokar

I would play the first note of the left hand on the beat. That left hand is essentially based on a double pedal point on the tonic and dominant, sometimes together and sometimes only one of the 2. In bar 2 it is a tonic pedal point. So I would want to have that foundation right on the beat. That said practically at speed it is not even noticeable as both are played in very fast succession.


Indeed. You have to take the harmony into account. Likewise for pedal changes.

Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: pianoloverus] #2900985
10/16/19 06:04 PM
10/16/19 06:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,020
Santa Fe, NM
AaronSF Online content
1000 Post Club Member
AaronSF  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,020
Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by AaronSF
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I have a different question about this piece. When one listens to performances it sounds like the RH chords are on the beat, but Brahms writes those chords on the "and" part of each beat. Why does he write it that way?


I think putting the melody on the off-beat is intended to keep the melody light and airy. Try playing it on the beat and see what happens...it becomes heavier, denser. The arpeggiated chords are both on and off the beat, so I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding them.
I don't think playing the RH on the beat makes the melody sound any different. When I say playing on the beat I mean imagining that Brahms made the first LH eighth note in the piece an upbeat and then started the next eighth on the first beat of the next measure. In pro recordings I think it sounds the way I just described it.

My question refers to parts like the first few measures.


Yes, I get what you're saying, but I just don't hear the piece that way at all, and I think if a pianist makes the melody sound like it is on the beat when it isn't, then they are doing something very wrong. The ear expects the melody to be on the beat, so Brahms is playing with that expectation and surprising us by moving the melody to the off beat. So the melody is played off beat...meaning with none of the expected on-beat accents (agogic or otherwise), causing the melody to float above the expected rhythmic pattern. I'm listening to Julius Katchen play it right now and the melody is distinctly on the off-beat, creating a tension between the melody and accompaniment that would disappear if the melody were on beat. Brahms loved playing with rhythm and going against rhythmic expectations; this piece is just one example.


August Förster 215
Re: Brahms, Op. 76, No. 3, Opinions [Re: AaronSF] #2900987
10/16/19 06:10 PM
10/16/19 06:10 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,954
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,954
New York City
Originally Posted by AaronSF
Yes, I get what you're saying, but I just don't hear the piece that way at all, and I think if a pianist makes the melody sound like it is on the beat when it isn't, then they are doing something very wrong. The ear expects the melody to be on the beat, so Brahms is playing with that expectation and surprising us by moving the melody to the off beat. So the melody is played off beat...meaning with none of the expected on-beat accents (agogic or otherwise), causing the melody to float above the expected rhythmic pattern. I'm listening to Julius Katchen play it right now and the melody is distinctly on the off-beat, creating a tension between the melody and accompaniment that would disappear if the melody were on beat. Brahms loved playing with rhythm and going against rhythmic expectations; this piece is just one example.
That's interesting because it was my listening to that same recording that made by conclude that the piece actually sounds like the RH chords are on the beat.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Your favorite Pianoteq piano
by EVC2017. 11/12/19 05:57 PM
Frozen ProTek
by DMPTT. 11/12/19 05:43 PM
Should I fix or buy new one?
by jennie_hp. 11/12/19 04:13 PM
Minor Shoulder Surgery
by KenBakerMN. 11/12/19 01:50 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,050
Posts2,890,151
Members94,935
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1