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Using All the Same Scale Fingering #2899761
10/13/19 12:04 PM
10/13/19 12:04 PM
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Curt R Offline OP
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I'm working on learning piano on my own. At this point, all I do is scales every day. I can play all 12 scales, both major and minor. I just play one octave, one hand at a time. When I started looking into advancing my practice on the Web, I came across fingering for scales. I play all the keys 12312345. When I do two octaves in C I play 123123412312345. The sites I found gave different fingering for different scales. How important is this? I don't have any problems with my one fingering fits all approach. In the case of F Major in my right hand, I just move my fingers between the black the keys.

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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899777
10/13/19 12:44 PM
10/13/19 12:44 PM
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Somehow I don’t think that’s a good idea. I think it will prove limiting down the road. I use the Hanon fingering. It took about two years to learn all 48 major and minor scales well, 4 octaves up and back, with their corresponding arpeggios.


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899779
10/13/19 12:47 PM
10/13/19 12:47 PM
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So you mean that you play right hand F with your thumb, G with finger 2, A with finger 3, and then move your thumb to play Bb? I would say that as a beginner playing in this way, you run the risk of creating some very uncomfortable habits that even may hurt your hands. Furthermore, it will be hard to play a smooth and even legato F major scale in this way. So yes, I would recommend you to learn to be flexible and play Bb with finger 4.


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899780
10/13/19 12:48 PM
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Buy the Hanon scales book. Learn to play them hands together and multiple octaves. Go very slowly, and keep the non playing fingers relaxed. The speed will come more quickly once they are solidly learned....much better than sloppily fast playing. Pay attention to good hand form and posture.

Learn one at a time. Most people start with C major but some start with other keys such as B major, as it conforms to your natural hand shape better. I learned all the majors first, then added the minors afterwards, a year later. For the majors, I learned one every two weeks or so, again 4 octaves and hands together, then would keep practicing them while I added the new one.


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899781
10/13/19 12:49 PM
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And welcome to the form.
And get a teacher wink.


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899783
10/13/19 12:59 PM
10/13/19 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt R
How important is this?

Extremely important. You are missing some important principles. The consideration here are your hands themselves. Examine them. You have three long fingers on the inside; at either end, a very mobile thumb that is angled differently than the remaining fingers, a pinky that has extra mobility (esp. when trained) but not as much as the thumb --- thumb and pinky are both set back further than the thumb. That's what you have to work with. On the piano side you have black keys that are further in and higher up. This is also what you have to work with.

You will be playing music, which will get faster and more complicated. A very important aspect of piano is fingering, which can make or break ease of playing, and can even be the cause of discomfort to the point of injury. Another aspect for playing any music instrument is to find efficiency and ease. These are all within the factors that I've listed.

Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899785
10/13/19 01:09 PM
10/13/19 01:09 PM
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I don’t understand why any beginning pianist starts by learning scales rather than learning where to find a note on the page with its corresponding key, how to play different rhythms and developing proficiency in playing hands together. Do any method books actually recommend starting with scales first and learning a bunch of them at one time? I don’t think so. So why is this being encouraged here? The OP states he is only learning scales which does not seem to be a great plan, no matter the fingering.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: dogperson] #2899790
10/13/19 01:25 PM
10/13/19 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
I don’t understand why any beginning pianist starts by learning scales rather than learning where to find a note on the page with its corresponding key, how to play different rhythms and developing proficiency in playing hands together. Do any method books actually recommend starting with scales first and learning a bunch of them at one time? I don’t think so. So why is this being encouraged here? The OP states he is only learning scales which does not seem to be a great plan, no matter the fingering.

Good point dogperson. However, sometimes, with a new member, we just answer their question, instead of immediately having a lot of opinions about how they try to learn.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Animisha] #2899796
10/13/19 01:31 PM
10/13/19 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by dogperson
I don’t understand why any beginning pianist starts by learning scales rather than learning where to find a note on the page with its corresponding key, how to play different rhythms and developing proficiency in playing hands together. Do any method books actually recommend starting with scales first and learning a bunch of them at one time? I don’t think so. So why is this being encouraged here? The OP states he is only learning scales which does not seem to be a great plan, no matter the fingering.

Good point dogperson. However, sometimes, with a new member, we just answer their question, instead of immediately having a lot of opinions about how they try to learn.


I am not suggesting beating a new member ( or even an old member) up... but would anyone here really recommend starting only with scales? If no, I would argue that we owe it to the OP to at least mention it. Otherwise, there will be an assumption that he was on the right track. At least, I would make that assumption as a beginner and wonder why everyone kept quiet.

Last edited by dogperson; 10/13/19 01:32 PM.

"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: dogperson] #2899806
10/13/19 01:56 PM
10/13/19 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by dogperson
I don’t understand why any beginning pianist starts by learning scales rather than learning where to find a note on the page with its corresponding key, how to play different rhythms and developing proficiency in playing hands together. Do any method books actually recommend starting with scales first and learning a bunch of them at one time? I don’t think so. So why is this being encouraged here? The OP states he is only learning scales which does not seem to be a great plan, no matter the fingering.

Good point dogperson. However, sometimes, with a new member, we just answer their question, instead of immediately having a lot of opinions about how they try to learn.


I am not suggesting beating a new member ( or even an old member) up... but would anyone here really recommend starting only with scales? If no, I would argue that we owe it to the OP to at least mention it. Otherwise, there will be an assumption that he was on the right track. At least, I would make that assumption as a beginner and wonder why everyone kept quiet.

Valid points.

To the OP, learning piano is complex, and learning scales is just one small piece of the large puzzle. And, as Dogperson points out, it may be premature. Have you thought about other aspects of learning to play? Many of us began with a method ok, such as Alfreds All In One. That way you can learn to read and play actual music. It wouldn’t be a terrible idea to get a teacher smile.


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899816
10/13/19 02:24 PM
10/13/19 02:24 PM
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I would be inclined to learn the usual fingerings first because they are generally the easiest option for playing scales straight up and down, if that is really all you want to do. All sorts of other fingerings are possible for the infinite variety of musical situations which use scales in many ways but the traditional fingerings provide a good basis. I agree with the others that music comes first though and you run the risk of losing enjoyment pretty quickly doing nothing but exercises.

Last edited by Ted; 10/13/19 02:25 PM.

"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: dogperson] #2899824
10/13/19 02:41 PM
10/13/19 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
I don’t understand why any beginning pianist starts by learning scales rather than learning where to find a note on the page with its corresponding key, how to play different rhythms and developing proficiency in playing hands together. Do any method books actually recommend starting with scales first and learning a bunch of them at one time? I don’t think so. So why is this being encouraged here? The OP states he is only learning scales which does not seem to be a great plan, no matter the fingering.


It's because they have no idea what they're doing. The real question, IMHO, is why would you try to learn an instrument without any kind of actual instruction? I'm seeing this more and more on here and it's frustrating.


Lisa

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"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: dogperson] #2899830
10/13/19 02:53 PM
10/13/19 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
I don’t understand why any beginning pianist starts by learning scales rather than learning where to find a note on the page with its corresponding key, how to play different rhythms and developing proficiency in playing hands together. Do any method books actually recommend starting with scales first and learning a bunch of them at one time? I don’t think so. So why is this being encouraged here? The OP states he is only learning scales which does not seem to be a great plan, no matter the fingering.
Yes and it's also very boring and unmotivating to play only scales.

Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899844
10/13/19 03:11 PM
10/13/19 03:11 PM
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To the OP:

Please read Keystring's reply several times. He covers all the standard arguments (and they're _good_ arguments) for using "standard fingering" for scales (that is, different fingerings for different scales).

The only group I've heard of, who use the same fingering for all scales, are some jazz pianists. I think that the reason they do that, is that they may have to transpose music "on the fly", without time to work out fingering changes -- so "all scales the same" works, for them:

. . . they trade-off the advantages of "standard fingering" for making it easier to transpose "on-the-fly".

IMHO:

"Standard fingering" will probably seem extremely awkward, at first. But as your speed increases, and you get used to it, I think you'll find it faster, easier, and more even, than "all scales the same".

Hanon is a good source. If you want explanations, track down Cooke's "Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios" (I think there's a PDF public-domain file). There's a few pages there, that explains why the "general rules" for "standard fingering" work.


. Charles
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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899856
10/13/19 03:37 PM
10/13/19 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt R
I'm working on learning piano on my own. At this point, all I do is scales every day. I can play all 12 scales, both major and minor. I just play one octave, one hand at a time. When I started looking into advancing my practice on the Web, I came across fingering for scales. I play all the keys 12312345. When I do two octaves in C I play 123123412312345. The sites I found gave different fingering for different scales. How important is this? I don't have any problems with my one fingering fits all approach. In the case of F Major in my right hand, I just move my fingers between the black the keys.


I used to occasionally play all the scales with the C major fingering. It is a good training for somebody that would be an intermediate level player. The thing is that you do not see the issue because you are playing only one octave. When you move to 2 and more, the C major fingering is highly impractical for certain scales and certainly you can not achieve the same fluidity and speed as if using a more appropriate fingering, for example E flat major. The 4th finger landing on D followed by the thumb on the black key is definitely a configuration you want to avoid....

So you would make your life easier adopting the recommended standard fingering by scale; also the C fingering on some keys is not really that good for untrained fingers and you can strain them. Good luck.

Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899866
10/13/19 04:09 PM
10/13/19 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt R
I'm working on learning piano on my own. At this point, all I do is scales every day. I can play all 12 scales, both major and minor. I just play one octave, one hand at a time. When I started looking into advancing my practice on the Web, I came across fingering for scales. I play all the keys 12312345. When I do two octaves in C I play 123123412312345. The sites I found gave different fingering for different scales. How important is this? I don't have any problems with my one fingering fits all approach. In the case of F Major in my right hand, I just move my fingers between the black the keys.


It is extremely important, indeed it is critical to good playing to use conventional fingering for playing scales. Otherwise, you'll never develop any evenness or flexibility in scale playing.

The following chart is for fingering for major scales where RH = Right hand; LH = Left hand

It may look more complex than it is. All you have to remember is where the thumb should fall in each hand. Remember that these are fingerings for scales. Fingerings for scale passages in pieces may be different depending on a) how much of the scale is used in the passage and b) what comes before and after the scale passage.

C major: RH – thumb on C and F; LH – thumb on G and C (start with 5)
G major: RH – thumb on F and C; LH – thumb on D and G (start with 5)
D major: RH – thumb on D and G; LH – thumb on A and D (start with 5)
A major: RH– thumb on A and D; LH – thumb on E and A (start with 5)
E major: RH – thumb on E and A; LH – thumb on B and E (start with 5)
B major: RH – thumb on B and E; LH – thumb on E and B (start with 4)
F sharp major: RH – thumb on B and E-sharp (start with 2); LH – thumb on B and E sharp (start with 4)

F major: RH – thumb on F and C; LH – thumb on C and F (start with 5)
B-flat major: RH - thumb on C and F ( with 2); LH – thumb on D and A (start with 3)
E-flat major: RH - thumb on F and C (start with 2); LH – thumb on G and D (start with 3)
A-flat major: RH – thumb on C and F (start with 2) ; LH – thumb on C and G (start with 3)
D-flat major: RH – thumb on F and C (start with 2); LH – thumb on F and C (start with 3)
G-flat major: RH – thumb on C-flat and F (start with 2); LH – thumb on C-flat and F (start with 4)

Try it, hands separately, slowly at first, and I guarantee you will find it much more comfortable - and will lead to greater flexibility - than using one fingering fits all, because one fingering simply doesn't fit all scales.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899872
10/13/19 04:18 PM
10/13/19 04:18 PM
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BruceD, I think you may have a mistype on G major. wink


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899876
10/13/19 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt R
I'm working on learning piano on my own. At this point, all I do is scales every day. I can play all 12 scales, both major and minor. I just play one octave, one hand at a time. When I started looking into advancing my practice on the Web, I came across fingering for scales. I play all the keys 12312345. When I do two octaves in C I play 123123412312345. The sites I found gave different fingering for different scales. How important is this? I don't have any problems with my one fingering fits all approach. In the case of F Major in my right hand, I just move my fingers between the black the keys.

It depends on what you want to become (eventually): a good pianist with fluent keyboard technique - or just someone having 'a bit of fun' playing what they feel like playing.

If the former, learn everything properly from the start - including using the correct fingerings. (BTW, some jazzers - especially the self-taught ones - may use all sorts of bad fingerings, including sliding from one note to the next with the same finger even when there's no reason to. They aren't concerned with evenness and fluency.....)


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: Curt R] #2899897
10/13/19 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Curt R
I'm working on learning piano on my own. At this point, all I do is scales every day. I can play all 12 scales, both major and minor. I just play one octave, one hand at a time. .......



Well you have just fallen into your first bad habit, and I bet you won't like some of the answers you get here because it will mean having to change, or at least cast doubt in your mind in your method. Changing the way we have already learned to do something is very difficult, and of course we put up all sorts of barriers/excuses why we shouldn't have to change. I would advise you should review where you are getting your info from, and how you are going about your self learning. If you don't want to/can't afford lessons then at least get a method book to put you on the right path.

As to the question itself, if is not easy to answer not knowing why you are learning piano, what genres you hope to play, etc. But let me say this from my classical learning point of view. Many times in my beginner days I came to regret challenging fingering decisions, because I could not put myself in the experienced position of those that wrote them. What may seem easy when played slow, can be incredibly difficult to pull off when played fast. Scales will be no exception.

Going forward, I would put trust in recommended fingering (scales and pieces) until you have the experience to know different.


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Re: Using All the Same Scale Fingering [Re: TomLC] #2899902
10/13/19 06:22 PM
10/13/19 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
BruceD, I think you may have a mistype on G major. wink


Thank you for catching that! Did I miss any others?

Don't ya hate it when that happens!


G major: RH - thumb on G and C; LH - thumb on D and G (start on 5).

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
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