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Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899514 10/12/19 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by silence21
....The piece I'm learning is Nuvole Bianche, quite popular and not super hard as it's quite repetitive, I learned by watching several different videos to see which notes are played and figure out optimal fingering etc. I'm aware that's not the best way of trying to learn a piece, but this is the case atm. I need to learn songs or bits of songs I like otherwise I lose interest very quickly. Don't get me wrong, I've picked up several exercises that I do daily from youtube videos also, so it's not like I jumped into learning Nuvole Bianche since the first day I got my piano.

I've also been dividing the song into sections, and really only focusing on the parts I have problems with. But I'll try even smaller sections when learning to play with both hands together I suppose.

Thanks for the comments.
Are you saying you're learning this piece by watching a video and not from a score? I'm not clear on how you're learning this piece.


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Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
Animisha #2899544 10/12/19 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Hi Silence, you got great advice already, but one thing was not mentioned yet: sections. Don't just play through you piece, but divide it into sections, and practise each section. A section can be as little as four notes: two notes that you start with, and two notes that you do next. Most sections are a bit longer though, usually at least a measure. When playing sections, also make them overlapping.

And yes, it would be interesting if you could show us a snippet of the piece that you are trying to learn!


+1 Breaking it down into bite-size pieces is super important!


Lisa

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Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP & CLP645

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Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899548 10/12/19 03:58 PM
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I googled the piece "Nuvole Bianche" and musicnotes has it online to see a version of the score. I wouldn't say it is an easy piece for a beginner if I'm looking at the right piece.


https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmus...h0HZAJaEAQYBCABEgJznvD_BwE#ProductDetail

Good luck and I hope you stay with it.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
EPW #2899552 10/12/19 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by EPW
I googled the piece "Nuvole Bianche" and musicnotes has it online to see a version of the score. I wouldn't say it is an easy piece for a beginner if I'm looking at the right piece.


https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmus...h0HZAJaEAQYBCABEgJznvD_BwE#ProductDetail

Good luck and I hope you stay with it.


He is not learning it by reading but by rote copying. Not sure what would be easy way of learning hands together in that situation. Maybe someone who has learned this way can offer suggestions


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899553 10/12/19 04:29 PM
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Oh good luck with that type of learning. IMHO that is a waste of time. Bite the bullet, there aren't short-cuts to learning the piano no matter what the internet tells you!


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899569 10/12/19 05:24 PM
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Been learning the piano for just over a month or so and never before that I had done any music, so no I can't read notes and all that atm, should have mentioned it... I just watched a video...
What's the difference between learning how to play a piece with both hands together by reading vs not reading ?
I'll most likely force myself to start learning to sight-read very soon, but meanwhile...I'm genuinely confused why it's different when I know which notes to play etc for each hand, just that my brain explodes when trying to play them at the same time.

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899572 10/12/19 05:44 PM
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Your brain explodes when playing them together because it is a whole new skill that it is learning. Hope you keep with it.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899577 10/12/19 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by silence21
Been learning the piano for just over a month or so and never before that I had done any music, so no I can't read notes and all that atm, should have mentioned it... I just watched a video...
What's the difference between learning how to play a piece with both hands together by reading vs not reading ?
I'll most likely force myself to start learning to sight-read very soon, but meanwhile...I'm genuinely confused why it's different when I know which notes to play etc for each hand, just that my brain explodes when trying to play them at the same time.

There are two issues here: 1) being able to play hands together, and 2) learning by rote vs learning by reading. If the first issue is not resolved, then neither method of learning (rote or reading) will be of help to you.

The brain needs to learn things sequentially and build upon what was learned. To leap into something without that foundation results in this "brain explosion" you're talking about, and will continue to do so until a step back is taking and you guide yourself through.

You need to first develop the ability to play simply melodies between the hands - something simple like Happy Birthday, where both hands take part in playing just the sung part. The more back and forth between left and right hands, the better coordinated they become, as well as the individual fingers being used with equal amounts (not neglecting any).

Then you add in one moment - usually at the end of a melody - where both hands play simultaneously. This is for one note only. After you do some of this and perhaps add a few more simultaneous notes, then you are able to add some hands together playing with having one hand hold a note while the other hand plays.

All of this is covered in most modern method books. Please consider doing this before attempting to play pieces that are too far beyond you like this one.


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Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
Morodiene #2899615 10/12/19 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by silence21
Been learning the piano for just over a month or so and never before that I had done any music, so no I can't read notes and all that atm, should have mentioned it... I just watched a video...
What's the difference between learning how to play a piece with both hands together by reading vs not reading ?
I'll most likely force myself to start learning to sight-read very soon, but meanwhile...I'm genuinely confused why it's different when I know which notes to play etc for each hand, just that my brain explodes when trying to play them at the same time.

There are two issues here: 1) being able to play hands together, and 2) learning by rote vs learning by reading. If the first issue is not resolved, then neither method of learning (rote or reading) will be of help to you.

The brain needs to learn things sequentially and build upon what was learned. To leap into something without that foundation results in this "brain explosion" you're talking about, and will continue to do so until a step back is taking and you guide yourself through.

You need to first develop the ability to play simply melodies between the hands - something simple like Happy Birthday, where both hands take part in playing just the sung part. The more back and forth between left and right hands, the better coordinated they become, as well as the individual fingers being used with equal amounts (not neglecting any).

Then you add in one moment - usually at the end of a melody - where both hands play simultaneously. This is for one note only. After you do some of this and perhaps add a few more simultaneous notes, then you are able to add some hands together playing with having one hand hold a note while the other hand plays.

All of this is covered in most modern method books. Please consider doing this before attempting to play pieces that are too far beyond you like this one.


There you have it from a piano teacher. Thank You Morodiene smile I didn't know how to write out what you just said. I'm not a teacher.
I have to agree with your statement of leaving that piece now. Use that piece as a goal that you want to reach. How long? IMHO who cares silence21 you are only 28. Take it slow and enjoy this adventure smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899629 10/12/19 10:17 PM
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+1. I was a violin/guitar player who learned to play by ear on the piano, but could never figure out the bass clef quickly. Then my daughter started taking lessons using the Alfred series. I said to myself "I can do that". Bought the first few books and went through the Alfred books for kids one at a time. The first book took me a day. The second book took me a day. After that they started to get harder. But with each piece I did, as silly as the first ones seemed, I learned a little. Having a teacher is better (every now and then there's just something that doesn't compute, and later it will make more difference), but if you're not going to get one, I'd recommend the Alfred books.


VPC-1. Komplete Kontrol 61 1st gen. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft, etc. Two kids on Alfred.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899778 10/13/19 01:46 PM
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I am always puzzled by people who are reluctant to learn how to read music, "there must be an easier way", and then struggle forever with videos, Synthesia and other systems that actually are so much harder. I tried to play a piece with the help of Synthesia once, because I just could not find the notes anywhere. I got mad at it and gave up after a while.

Believe me - reading music is EASY. While you certainly can devote half of your life learning higher music theory, you can definitely learn the basics in music reading in ... um, an hour? That will not cover everything, definitely not, but you will discover that it is a very logical system. It is not exactly like learning to read Chinese. The piano is also the perfect choice for learning basic music reading, as the layout is so straightforward. If you could learn how to read and write, and learned how to master a computer keyboard and learned how to interpret all the controls on a car dashboard, you have definitely already learned much harder things than basic music reading.

I did not, however, say that you will get it all in an instant. And this leads to your main question, which has been answered well already here above. I have met so many people who think that learning ONE particular song should be quite easy. Why bother with all this bells and whistles, why not just learn which keys to press and there you go ... then more ambitious people can struggle for years with scales and Hanon and wrist movements and Bach Inventions and God knows what. But as with so much else, there simply are no shortcuts here. You say you don't want to go the long way and then you get puzzled because it turned out to be harder than you thought, and then you ask for advice to overcome the difficulties. Well ...

If you begin from the beginning with a good method book, you will soon find yourself playing easy songs with both hands and it will be so easy, just like eating with a knife and a fork. When I was a child I envied my friends so much, those who had pianos and took piano lessons. We had not piano at home. I sat beside the piano and watched in awe how my friends played pieces they called easy, by moving their hands independently, it looked so easy, yet ... impossible. When I tried to mimic their movements, I just could not force my hands to do that magic. But finally I got a piano and lessons, and I began with the beginner's book and ... well, it turned out not to be that difficult after all. But still I did not find any shortcut. You cannot skip certain steps. Get a method book and very soon you will be able to play Happy Birthday and similar tunes and then you just keep on working. Point is, it is great fun to practice as long as you make progress. And if you think it is more difficult than you thought at first - congratulations, you have found the first truth about piano playing. It IS difficult - for everyone! For absolutely everyone. No instrument is easier to learn in the beginning, and no instrument is harder to fully master than piano.

Last edited by ghosthand; 10/13/19 01:50 PM.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
ghosthand #2899798 10/13/19 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ghosthand
I am always puzzled by people who are reluctant to learn how to read music, "there must be an easier way", and then struggle forever with videos, Synthesia and other systems that actually are so much harder. I tried to play a piece with the help of Synthesia once, because I just could not find the notes anywhere. I got mad at it and gave up after a while.

Believe me - reading music is EASY. While you certainly can devote half of your life learning higher music theory, you can definitely learn the basics in music reading in ... um, an hour? That will not cover everything, definitely not, but you will discover that it is a very logical system. It is not exactly like learning to read Chinese. The piano is also the perfect choice for learning basic music reading, as the layout is so straightforward. If you could learn how to read and write, and learned how to master a computer keyboard and learned how to interpret all the controls on a car dashboard, you have definitely already learned much harder things than basic music reading.

I did not, however, say that you will get it all in an instant. And this leads to your main question, which has been answered well already here above. I have met so many people who think that learning ONE particular song should be quite easy. Why bother with all this bells and whistles, why not just learn which keys to press and there you go ... then more ambitious people can struggle for years with scales and Hanon and wrist movements and Bach Inventions and God knows what. But as with so much else, there simply are no shortcuts here. You say you don't want to go the long way and then you get puzzled because it turned out to be harder than you thought, and then you ask for advice to overcome the difficulties. Well ...

If you begin from the beginning with a good method book, you will soon find yourself playing easy songs with both hands and it will be so easy, just like eating with a knife and a fork. When I was a child I envied my friends so much, those who had pianos and took piano lessons. We had not piano at home. I sat beside the piano and watched in awe how my friends played pieces they called easy, by moving their hands independently, it looked so easy, yet ... impossible. When I tried to mimic their movements, I just could not force my hands to do that magic. But finally I got a piano and lessons, and I began with the beginner's book and ... well, it turned out not to be that difficult after all. But still I did not find any shortcut. You cannot skip certain steps. Get a method book and very soon you will be able to play Happy Birthday and similar tunes and then you just keep on working. Point is, it is great fun to practice as long as you make progress. And if you think it is more difficult than you thought at first - congratulations, you have found the first truth about piano playing. It IS difficult - for everyone! For absolutely everyone. No instrument is easier to learn in the beginning, and no instrument is harder to fully master than piano.


And yet …. even with this admirable effort to get the message across …..

My guess is that it will not reach those who need it most ….. beginners trying to bypass "the beginning" and jumping right into "songs they want to play".

Such is the nature of the beast.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
dmd #2899835 10/13/19 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by ghosthand
I am always puzzled by people who are reluctant to learn how to read music, "there must be an easier way", and then struggle forever with videos, Synthesia and other systems that actually are so much harder. I tried to play a piece with the help of Synthesia once, because I just could not find the notes anywhere. I got mad at it and gave up after a while.

Believe me - reading music is EASY. While you certainly can devote half of your life learning higher music theory, you can definitely learn the basics in music reading in ... um, an hour? That will not cover everything, definitely not, but you will discover that it is a very logical system. It is not exactly like learning to read Chinese. The piano is also the perfect choice for learning basic music reading, as the layout is so straightforward. If you could learn how to read and write, and learned how to master a computer keyboard and learned how to interpret all the controls on a car dashboard, you have definitely already learned much harder things than basic music reading.

I did not, however, say that you will get it all in an instant. And this leads to your main question, which has been answered well already here above. I have met so many people who think that learning ONE particular song should be quite easy. Why bother with all this bells and whistles, why not just learn which keys to press and there you go ... then more ambitious people can struggle for years with scales and Hanon and wrist movements and Bach Inventions and God knows what. But as with so much else, there simply are no shortcuts here. You say you don't want to go the long way and then you get puzzled because it turned out to be harder than you thought, and then you ask for advice to overcome the difficulties. Well ...

If you begin from the beginning with a good method book, you will soon find yourself playing easy songs with both hands and it will be so easy, just like eating with a knife and a fork. When I was a child I envied my friends so much, those who had pianos and took piano lessons. We had not piano at home. I sat beside the piano and watched in awe how my friends played pieces they called easy, by moving their hands independently, it looked so easy, yet ... impossible. When I tried to mimic their movements, I just could not force my hands to do that magic. But finally I got a piano and lessons, and I began with the beginner's book and ... well, it turned out not to be that difficult after all. But still I did not find any shortcut. You cannot skip certain steps. Get a method book and very soon you will be able to play Happy Birthday and similar tunes and then you just keep on working. Point is, it is great fun to practice as long as you make progress. And if you think it is more difficult than you thought at first - congratulations, you have found the first truth about piano playing. It IS difficult - for everyone! For absolutely everyone. No instrument is easier to learn in the beginning, and no instrument is harder to fully master than piano.


And yet …. even with this admirable effort to get the message across …..

My guess is that it will not reach those who need it most ….. beginners trying to bypass "the beginning" and jumping right into "songs they want to play".

Such is the nature of the beast.




I think it's just that different people have different goals. Some people want to learn how to play the piano, and others want to learn how to play x piece on the piano.

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899962 10/13/19 11:49 PM
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Learning to keep track of two different things in two different hands is indeed hard, and it takes a long time to learn no matter what. Try some in-between steps like tapping the rhythm on a table instead of on the piano, tap the rhythms while counting out loud, play one hand while singing the other hand's part. And absolutely get yourself the easiest two-hand pieces you can find. You don't mention which curriculum you're using, but any will have several simple and brief two-hand pieces that will help you practice this skill. For example see pages 24-33 here
http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/u...-_Op.101_-_Vorschule_im_Klavierspiel.pdf


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Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
hreichgott #2900073 10/14/19 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
Try some in-between steps like tapping the rhythm on a table instead of on the piano


I have found this technique very helpful! It's a great way to make use of down time at work. smile


I ❤️ Mendelssohn, Yann Tiersen, Heller
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2900173 10/14/19 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
Learning to keep track of two different things in two different hands is indeed hard, and it takes a long time to learn no matter what. Try some in-between steps like tapping the rhythm on a table instead of on the piano, tap the rhythms while counting out loud, play one hand while singing the other hand's part. And absolutely get yourself the easiest two-hand pieces you can find. You don't mention which curriculum you're using, but any will have several simple and brief two-hand pieces that will help you practice this skill. For example see pages 24-33 here
http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/u...-_Op.101_-_Vorschule_im_Klavierspiel.pdf
The OP is learning the piece by watching a video, rather than reading from a score. What you've suggested is a good approach when working from the notes, but likely not so much when learning from a video of someone playing the piece. Encouragingly, the OP mentions that he will likely learn to read soon and hopefully he will pick up a method book that will introduce playing HT in a gradual and understandable way.

Originally Posted by silence21
Been learning the piano for just over a month or so and never before that I had done any music, so no I can't read notes and all that atm, should have mentioned it... I just watched a video...
What's the difference between learning how to play a piece with both hands together by reading vs not reading ?
I'll most likely force myself to start learning to sight-read very soon, but meanwhile...I'm genuinely confused why it's different when I know which notes to play etc for each hand, just that my brain explodes when trying to play them at the same time.


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In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

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