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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
thepianoplayer416 #2899568 10/12/19 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
The debate between an acoustic & a digital is not over. I have a digital 88 and for me is sufficient for practice. Today people tend to move around more than they used to so acoustics tend to be harder to get rid of. People don't actually acquire keyboards second-hand as most people tend to buy them new. They are much more affordable and the models that are later tend to be better than the earlier ones. The way people see technology is that each generation would be better and people simply buy the later stuff. [...]

I do think you've made a lot of assertions in this post without necessarily backing them up. Thank you for providing the Suzuki info. I'm not a huge fan of Suzuki for piano, and this sort of cements that opinion for me.

I practice exclusively on a digital piano for the summer months and play on my acoustic concert grand piano for the rest of the year. There is absolutely no issue with transitioning from pieces that I learned on the digital to the acoustic. It's only like changing from one piano to another, which takes a little of adjustment. I'm able to do the expression that I desire on the DP and that translates well to the AP. I chose a digital that was similar in feel to my acoustic (a heavier action) and the adjustment is negligible.

RE: "At its best, the digital piano is only an imitation of a real acoustic piano." That *is* its purpose - to imitate an acoustic piano. Can it replace an acoustic? No, of course not. The sound that comes from an acoustic instrument just cannot at this point be duplicated through speakers. Maybe someday, but right now, acoustics in general sound more alive than digitals. But lets consider a comparison:

- Most DPs now try to emulate the feel of an acoustic grand. If one has money or space constraints, only an upright would suffice - which is a far inferior action to a grand.

- Most DPs sample the sound of large acoustic grands (usually around 7' or larger), whereas many people cannot afford a larger acoustic instrument like this. While the sound is not the same as from an acoustic piano due to speakers, you still can get a high-quality sound (especially if a separate software piano is purchased).

- I know of many who cannot own an acoustic, and so they would either have to get a digital or just not play piano at all. As a piano teacher, I would much rather see people playing digitals than have the instrument I love fade into obscurity because it was no longer practical for most people (like the harpsichord).

This is exactly why I made this video! When was this policy written, and was it written by anyone who played a mid-range to top-range digital recently? Every teacher can decide what kind of student they wish to allow in their studio, but this exclusive attitude does seem to be counterproductive and unnecessary in this day and age.

Last edited by Morodiene; 10/12/19 05:21 PM.

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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Morodiene #2899574 10/12/19 05:44 PM
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I’m not finding the reference to digital pianos being forbidden in Suzuki online. Is that an old handbook or new? I would be surprised if is a current policy.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Charles Cohen #2899611 10/12/19 08:19 PM
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Charles, I saw the Edmonton site, and was going to write to them, but then opted for the Ontario association. They're out of office for a week. If I hear something from them I'll post.

Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Morodiene #2899639 10/12/19 11:34 PM
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Last year I talked to the Suzuki teacher at the Royal Conservatory (Toronto) where I was taking an adult piano group class. She was given a room on the second floor with 2 Yamaha baby grands. Besides taking on young students (under 10) accompanied by their parents, she also runs a 4-week training course for people who want to be certified as a Level 1 Suzuki teacher. Her name is listed in the RCM Toronto course listing under Suzuki teacher training. She never taught anybody on a digital piano and probably never will.

Every parent who wants to enrol his/her kids into Suzuki music or someone who wants to be a teacher need to take a 1-day info session “Every Child Can”. The Suzuki teachers hosting the session who teach piano would get their students practice on acoustic pianos. I attended the info session last year and assumed this was the case a year ago. Anybody who wants to clarify the acoustic piano dispute can send an Email to the Suzuki Association of America saying that he/she wants to be a Suzuki teacher and needs to know if it is acceptable to submit a video for evaluation performed on a DP and you get the answer... clear and simple.

The room upstairs where I attended the adult group classes has 3 rows of Yamaha Clavinova DPs. There is a Yamaha upright by the wall which was not used in class. The teachers who are affiliated with the Royal Conservatory have no issue with students practicing on DPs. The teacher downstairs who is affiliated with Suzuki with 40+ years of teaching experience is definitely against DPs. When S Suzuki started teaching in Japan over 60 years ago, his ideas was a novelty. Today some of his assumptions may be 60 years out of date.

Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Tyrone Slothrop #2899647 10/13/19 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by earlofmar
Originally Posted by keystring


But what of the student who doesn't yet have a piano, has a teacher lined up in 1 or 2 months when the piano is there, and wants to do at least something? Morodiene, what can this eager student do while waiting for the piano to arrive?


they should watch non stop youtube clips of five years olds playing advanced repertoire, and imagine themselves doing the same after about a year of casual practice. smirk

Don't you mean 40 hours a day practice, per your signature?


Obviously the Ling Ling method is for those with plenty of time on their hands..........


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Morodiene #2899713 10/13/19 09:54 AM
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I think this debate on digital pianos impairing the pianist technique development is far from ending. People (me included) will always argue that it is better to learn on an acoustic piano. I think it is best to play in a cheap 88 weighted keys DP than not to play at all, but I believe that the student that practice in a good acoustic piano can develop faster and further. That is something that my teacher told me. He had a student that started playing with a high-end DP (Yamaha Clavinova CLP-645), and he was good, but when he upgraded to a grand piano (Yamaha C3) his playing quickly reached another level, and he developed a much finer sense of touch, tone, dynamic control, etc. I am not saying that it is not possible to develop that playing in DP, but that it is easier if you have an amazing acoustic piano. I think that might be critical only for classical repertoire, like pop, rock, and jazz can be played in synths and the music doesn't usually require too much "expressiveness subtlety" (I don't know a better way of saying that).

BTW, I have a good upright piano and I also bought a DP (Roland FP-30) to practice at night. Although the DP is supposed to mimic the action of a real piano, it feels much different and I can understand why having only a DP could slow down or even limit the student development, especially regarding the fine-tuning of the musical aspects. I avoid practicing repertoire on the DP, I mostly use it for the early stages of reading and memorizing a piece. If I couldn't have an acoustic piano at home I would find and try to play in one as often as I can. I know that with modern technology the DPs are much better, but it should be obvious that if you want to learn the piano you should prefer the real instrument, not the imitation.

I can also relate to my experience playing drums. I started playing with an electronic drum kit (a good/expensive one), which was good to develop my sense of rhythm and coordination. But it was only when I got real drums, with metal cymbals, that I could learn some of the "musical aspects" of playing, being able to produce different sounds by changing the stick attack position (I don't know how to explain that) and having a finer sense of dynamic control.

My point is, you may only be able to progress up to a certain point with the digital instrument. Sure, some people can get very far, but maybe they could have gotten even further if they were practicing with a good acoustic instrument in the first place. So for those who can, IMHO, you should get an acoustic piano or at least try to practice in one as often as you can. I know that some experts on the subject might tell you otherwise, and since I am no expert at all (just a very motivated beginner) my opinion should not have much weight, but I wanted to share it anyway.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Morodiene #2899716 10/13/19 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

I practice exclusively on a digital piano for the summer months and play on my acoustic concert grand piano for the rest of the year. There is absolutely no issue with transitioning from pieces that I learned on the digital to the acoustic. It's only like changing from one piano to another, which takes a little of adjustment. I'm able to do the expression that I desire on the DP and that translates well to the AP. I chose a digital that was similar in feel to my acoustic (a heavier action) and the adjustment is negligible.

That is very interesting to hear, but I wonder if you have practiced only in a DP how the concert grand would feel?


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
facdo #2899720 10/13/19 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by facdo
I think this debate on digital pianos impairing the pianist technique development is far from ending. People (me included) will always argue that it is better to learn on an acoustic piano. I think it is best to play in a cheap 88 weighted keys DP than not to play at all, but I believe that the student that practice in a good acoustic piano can develop faster and further. That is something that my teacher told me. He had a student that started playing with a high-end DP (Yamaha Clavinova CLP-645), and he was good, but when he upgraded to a grand piano (Yamaha C3) his playing quickly reached another level, and he developed a much finer sense of touch, tone, dynamic control, etc. I am not saying that it is not possible to develop that playing in DP, but that it is easier if you have an amazing acoustic piano. I think that might be critical only for classical repertoire, like pop, rock, and jazz can be played in synths and the music doesn't usually require too much "expressiveness subtlety" (I don't know a better way of saying that).

BTW, I have a good upright piano and I also bought a DP (Roland FP-30) to practice at night. Although the DP is supposed to mimic the action of a real piano, it feels much different and I can understand why having only a DP could slow down or even limit the student development, especially regarding the fine-tuning of the musical aspects. I avoid practicing repertoire on the DP, I mostly use it for the early stages of reading and memorizing a piece. If I couldn't have an acoustic piano at home I would find and try to play in one as often as I can. I know that with modern technology the DPs are much better, but it should be obvious that if you want to learn the piano you should prefer the real instrument, not the imitation.

I can also relate to my experience playing drums. I started playing with an electronic drum kit (a good/expensive one), which was good to develop my sense of rhythm and coordination. But it was only when I got real drums, with metal cymbals, that I could learn some of the "musical aspects" of playing, being able to produce different sounds by changing the stick attack position (I don't know how to explain that) and having a finer sense of dynamic control.

My point is, you may only be able to progress up to a certain point with the digital instrument. Sure, some people can get very far, but maybe they could have gotten even further if they were practicing with a good acoustic instrument in the first place. So for those who can, IMHO, you should get an acoustic piano or at least try to practice in one as often as you can. I know that some experts on the subject might tell you otherwise, and since I am no expert at all (just a very motivated beginner) my opinion should not have much weight, but I wanted to share it anyway.

You are assuming certain limitations on top of the line digital instrument which remain unquantified. Until it can exactly clearly articulated what these differences are, the engineering/scientific reasons for these differences, and how it is that humans might actually notice these differences within our range of perception, I'm personally just going to rubbish all these anecdotes and just assume these differences are due to belief bias form of cognitive fallacy.

I have no trouble believing that lesser digital piano/keyboards have limitations. But I have trouble seeing how this is true at the very top of the line.

For a "more educated" and "expert" opinion than mine, I suggest anyone with interest in this topic take a look at this thread started by a PW member who graduated from a top conservatory in piano performance a few years ago as he argues from personal experience how the top hybrids married to expressive VSTs are already better than all except the best acoustic pianos. If such a trained classical pianist can't tell the difference at that level, I highly doubt lesser pianists will be able to tell the difference except through belief bias, as mentioned above.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
facdo #2899727 10/13/19 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by facdo
I am no expert at all (just a very motivated beginner) my opinion should not have much weight.

Indeed it shouldn't.
Originally Posted by facdo
Originally Posted by Morodiene

I practice exclusively on a digital piano for the summer months and play on my acoustic concert grand piano for the rest of the year. There is absolutely no issue with transitioning from pieces that I learned on the digital to the acoustic. It's only like changing from one piano to another, which takes a little of adjustment. I'm able to do the expression that I desire on the DP and that translates well to the AP. I chose a digital that was similar in feel to my acoustic (a heavier action) and the adjustment is negligible.

That is very interesting to hear, but I wonder if you have practiced only in a DP how the concert grand would feel?

That doesn't make sense. Read what she said.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
facdo #2899730 10/13/19 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by facdo
I think this debate on digital pianos impairing the pianist technique development is far from ending. People (me included) will always argue that it is better to learn on an acoustic piano. I think it is best to play in a cheap 88 weighted keys DP than not to play at all, but I believe that the student that practice in a good acoustic piano can develop faster and further. That is something that my teacher told me. He had a student that started playing with a high-end DP (Yamaha Clavinova CLP-645), and he was good, but when he upgraded to a grand piano (Yamaha C3) his playing quickly reached another level, and he developed a much finer sense of touch, tone, dynamic control, etc. I am not saying that it is not possible to develop that playing in DP, but that it is easier if you have an amazing acoustic piano. I think that might be critical only for classical repertoire, like pop, rock, and jazz can be played in synths and the music doesn't usually require too much "expressiveness subtlety" (I don't know a better way of saying that).

1. I think you make a false dichotomy between a cheap digital and "amazing" acoustic. There's an awful lot in between. In fact, the acoustic or digital most/many people use falls in between those two.
2. The student you mention who improved a lot of the Yamaha C3 might have improved just as much if he stuck with the digital.
3. Almost all the best jazz pianists are highly skilled in terms of their "expressiveness subtlety" and perform almost exclusively on excellent acoustics. Listen to ballads played by Keith Jarrett or Fred Hersch, for example.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/13/19 11:05 AM.
Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Morodiene #2899738 10/13/19 11:37 AM
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Let's put this into perspective. The old digitals often had sustains which were half that of any acoustic. And they had just 4 tones levels, p,mp, mf and f plus key actions which didn't keep up with even moderately fast pieces. Obviously not ones to learn on, but none of that is true of modern dps, even relatively cheap ones.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
facdo #2899752 10/13/19 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by facdo
I

BTW, I have a good upright piano and I also bought a DP (Roland FP-30) to practice at night. Although the DP is supposed to mimic the action of a real piano, it feels much different and I can understand why having only a DP could slow down or even limit the student development, especially regarding the fine-tuning of the musical aspects. I avoid practicing repertoire on the DP, I mostly use it for the early stages of reading and memorizing a piece. If I couldn't have an acoustic piano at home I would find and try to play in one as often as I can. I know that with modern technology the DPs are much better, but it should be obvious that if you want to learn the piano you should prefer the real instrument, not the imitation.


I think you need to qualify what is being compared. I had a impossible to keep in tune 50+ year old Baldwin Spinet. Just about any DP our there was better than that. However when I started looking at replacing the spinet with a newer upright I felt most of the DP's were lacking except for the hybrids. I played the NU1X next too a U1 and regarding the keyboard I didn't feel that there was anything lacking. I've had the NU1X for about 10 months. Recently I was in a situation where I was away from home but did have access to a Steinway upright I had no problem switching to the Steinway, Before when I had the spinet playing any other piano required adjustments.

My point is that these blanket statements about how playing a DP slows development are too broad to mean anything. You need to look at what the skill level of the player is, what their short term / long term goals are, what limitations they may have in terms of finance l, space and do they need a silent option. There is no one cookie cutter solution and not everyone is looking to become a classical concert pianist.


Last edited by oneilt130; 10/13/19 12:41 PM.

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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
facdo #2899753 10/13/19 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by facdo

BTW, I have a good upright piano and I also bought a DP (Roland FP-30) to practice at night. Although the DP is supposed to mimic the action of a real piano, it feels much different

You are a beginner. The difference is good for you. Being able to play on different pianos is a vital part of developing your technique. In the 'real' world acoustic actions are not all the same. They can vary widely.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Peddler100 #2899754 10/13/19 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by oneilt130


BTW, I have a good upright piano and I also bought a DP (Roland FP-30) to practice at night. Although the DP is supposed to mimic the action of a real piano, it feels much different and I can understand why having only a DP could slow down or even limit the student development, especially regarding the fine-tuning of the musical aspects. I avoid practicing repertoire on the DP, I mostly use it for the early stages of reading and memorizing a piece. If I couldn't have an acoustic piano at home I would find and try to play in one as often as I can. I know that with modern
My point is that these blanket statements about how playing a DP slows development are too broad to mean anything. You need to look at what the skill level of the player is, what their short term / long term goals are, what limitations they may have in terms of finance l, space and do they need a silent option. There is no one cookie cutter solution and not everyone is looking to become a classical concert pianist.



That. Also: it'd be nice if folks could back up their assertions with real evidence, rather than just speculation or anecdotes ...


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Colin Miles #2899769 10/13/19 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by facdo

BTW, I have a good upright piano and I also bought a DP (Roland FP-30) to practice at night. Although the DP is supposed to mimic the action of a real piano, it feels much different

You are a beginner. The difference is good for you. Being able to play on different pianos is a vital part of developing your technique. In the 'real' world acoustic actions are not all the same. They can vary widely.

Just to add to that. If you went into an acoustic shop and played a Steinway, Bosendorfer, Kawai and Yamaha to name just fourmakes, would you really expect them all to behave and sound in the same way?


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Tyrone Slothrop #2899770 10/13/19 01:16 PM
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Just boosting an excellent post so it doesn't get buried. wink
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You are assuming certain limitations on top of the line digital instrument which remain unquantified. Until it can exactly clearly articulated what these differences are, the engineering/scientific reasons for these differences, and how it is that humans might actually notice these differences within our range of perception, I'm personally just going to rubbish all these anecdotes and just assume these differences are due to belief bias form of cognitive fallacy.

I have no trouble believing that lesser digital piano/keyboards have limitations. But I have trouble seeing how this is true at the very top of the line.

For a "more educated" and "expert" opinion than mine, I suggest anyone with interest in this topic take a look at this thread started by a PW member who graduated from a top conservatory in piano performance a few years ago as he argues from personal experience how the top hybrids married to expressive VSTs are already better than all except the best acoustic pianos. If such a trained classical pianist can't tell the difference at that level, I highly doubt lesser pianists will be able to tell the difference except through belief bias, as mentioned above.

Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Tyrone Slothrop #2899784 10/13/19 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You are assuming certain limitations on top of the line digital instrument which remain unquantified. Until it can exactly clearly articulated what these differences are, the engineering/scientific reasons for these differences, and how it is that humans might actually notice these differences within our range of perception, I'm personally just going to rubbish all these anecdotes and just assume these differences are due to belief bias form of cognitive fallacy.

I have no trouble believing that lesser digital piano/keyboards have limitations. But I have trouble seeing how this is true at the very top of the line.

For a "more educated" and "expert" opinion than mine, I suggest anyone with interest in this topic take a look at this thread started by a PW member who graduated from a top conservatory in piano performance a few years ago as he argues from personal experience how the top hybrids married to expressive VSTs are already better than all except the best acoustic pianos. If such a trained classical pianist can't tell the difference at that level, I highly doubt lesser pianists will be able to tell the difference except through belief bias, as mentioned above.


Just because something is unquantified, difficult to measure or ascertain using a scientific methodology it doesn't mean it isn't real. But for that case, it isn't that hard to explain, since the action of digital pianos is different from the action of acoustic pianos and the sound volume is discretized into a finite number of possibilities/intensities. That is a limitation that an acoustic instrument doesn't have, theoretically. The sound in a digital piano, in most cases, is sampled from a nice grand piano, but there aren't infinite samples for the infinite range of dynamics that the pianist can play. Usually, they just change the volume, from a limited set of samples. I know that in my DP there are only 3 samples, one for PP, mF and FF, that are selected according to the intensity (which can range from 128 values, as in any MIDI signal). But in reality, the tone of the instrument changes slightly with the intensity, it is not just a change in volume. So if you record a note played PP, you can't reproduce the FFF by just increasing the volume. The way the sound is projected is also different, the various tone nuances that an acoustic instrument has and the way that the different harmonics may interact it is too complex and no DP can accurately replicate that (so far). I am not completely clueless about how that stuff works as I do have a master's degree in electrical engineering, so I am somehow knowledgeable in science and engineering. In reality, there are some very measurable and quantifiable differences between a DP and an acoustic instrument, but I agree that the way we perceive these differences is not clear and it is indeed hard to measure.

But anyway, my point is, it is a different instrument and if you only practice in a digital piano when you play a nice grand it is going to feel different. Sure, pianists have to adapt to new instruments all the time, but in that case, digital vs acoustic, they are physically different. For most piano students, it may not make much difference, but I seriously doubt you are going to see an aspiring concert pianist settling for a top of the line DP. He may have one and do part of his practice in one, but there is no substitute for a nice grand and I am sure he will use any opportunity he has to practice in one. After all, that will be the type of instrument that he will be performing in.

I propose a thought experiment. Take two twin brothers (or sisters), created in the same environment, and start teaching piano to them. They should have the same teacher, learn the same repertoire and practice for the same amount of time. One will only play in a top of the line digital piano and the other will only play in an excellent concert grand piano. After several years they are asked to play for an audience. Which brother/sister do you think will give a better performance? I know that there are many other factors influencing the outcome but let's just assume ideal conditions for a thought experiment. I believe the one that practiced in an acoustic piano will perform much better, but sure, I can't prove that and it may be a matter of personal opinion/believe.

Again, I am just sharing my opinion and I am by no means an authority on this subject. I did a fair amount of research about this before buying my DP and the verdict was that it is totally acceptable to practice in a nice digital piano, and it doesn't even have to be a top of the line instrument. I just think a nice grand piano will always be better (which should be obvious) and I believe a student is able to progress more by practicing in a nice acoustic instrument. I must emphasize the word "nice" in that sentence, meaning new and well maintained/tuned/regulated instruments, manufactured by brands that are committed to delivering high-quality pianos. Unfortunately, that is not accessible to everyone and the DP is an excellent option for those who can't have a nice acoustic. But for those who can and are very demanding about the level of skill they want to reach, I think at some point they should get a grand piano, and the sooner the better.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
Colin Miles #2899789 10/13/19 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by facdo
I am no expert at all (just a very motivated beginner) my opinion should not have much weight.

Indeed it shouldn't.

Yeah, but I was biased by the opinion of my teacher, and he is a concert pianist with about 40 years of experience, so... I think it should have some weight after all.

Originally Posted by Colin Miles

Originally Posted by facdo
Originally Posted by Morodiene

I practice exclusively on a digital piano for the summer months and play on my acoustic concert grand piano for the rest of the year. There is absolutely no issue with transitioning from pieces that I learned on the digital to the acoustic. It's only like changing from one piano to another, which takes a little of adjustment. I'm able to do the expression that I desire on the DP and that translates well to the AP. I chose a digital that was similar in feel to my acoustic (a heavier action) and the adjustment is negligible.

That is very interesting to hear, but I wonder if you have practiced only in a DP how the concert grand would feel?

That doesn't make sense. Read what she said.


Well, I think it does. Let me put it in a different way. Do you think she could give the same level of interpretation of a piece, in a grand piano, if she has only practiced (ever) in a digital piano? The fact that she can, occasionally, switch to an acoustic grand makes it much easier for her to adapt and perform all the subtle nuances that a good interpretation requires. I am not saying that it is not possible to convey such subtleties practicing only in a DP, I am just wondering how different it could be. But sure, we can't know for a fact, I am just asking for her opinion.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
pianoloverus #2899795 10/13/19 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus

1. I think you make a false dichotomy between a cheap digital and "amazing" acoustic. There's an awful lot in between. In fact, the acoustic or digital most/many people use falls in between those two.
2. The student you mention who improved a lot of the Yamaha C3 might have improved just as much if he stuck with the digital.
3. Almost all the best jazz pianists are highly skilled in terms of their "expressiveness subtlety" and perform almost exclusively on excellent acoustics. Listen to ballads played by Keith Jarrett or Fred Hersch, for example.


1 - You are absolutely right.

2 - We can't know that for a fact, but what I think was the most interesting from the case my teacher told me about was the kind of improvement that his student had. The improvement was in tone quality and touch, which can be an elusive thing to measure or even understand. That kind of sensitivity I can understand that it is harder (I am not saying impossible) to develop if you only practice in a DP.

3 - Yes, but I did say "usually", because in the classical repertoire (especially of the romantic era) that could be more critical. Maybe I shouldn't have included jazz in my commentary.


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Re: Myths 7 & 8 are up!
facdo #2899801 10/13/19 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by facdo
2 - We can't know that for a fact, but what I think was the most interesting from the case my teacher told me about was the kind of improvement that his student had. The improvement was in tone quality and touch, which can be an elusive thing to measure or even understand.
[/quote

That is totally anecdotal. The student may have been at the particular stage of development.

[quote=facdo]That kind of sensitivity I can understand that it is harder (I am not saying impossible) to develop if you only practice in a DP

This is myth no 8.


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