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beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar #2899032
10/10/19 03:45 PM
10/10/19 03:45 PM
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Lorcar Offline OP
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Hi,
thinking to enroll my 5yo daughter into any of these two piano schools, closest to home, which follow these two methods respectively:

https://www.alfred.com/music-for-little-mozarts/

this is a collective piano class, which kids find more amusing and interactive

the second method is:
http://www.colourstringsdunblane.com/about-colourstrings.html
this is instead an individual piano class, where they teach following this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Mind-principles-applied-beginners/dp/0951259202 and also using hand sign.

Do you have any experience with either of them? any suggestion for a 5yo?
thanks in advance

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Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899037
10/10/19 04:06 PM
10/10/19 04:06 PM
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Posts: 7,043
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Regarding the group class, you might want to review this old thread.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2899063
10/10/19 06:15 PM
10/10/19 06:15 PM
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keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Regarding the group class, you might want to review this old thread.

I'm not good in remembering names. Is the group class Lorcar thinking about the same as the one in that thread? I remember there was something very particular about the way that one was run.

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: keystring] #2899067
10/10/19 06:39 PM
10/10/19 06:39 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Regarding the group class, you might want to review this old thread.

I'm not good in remembering names. Is the group class Lorcar thinking about the same as the one in that thread? I remember there was something very particular about the way that one was run.

No, it's a related children's group music lesson however. I just think it would be valuable for the OP to see other parents' experiences with children's group music lessons, regardless of the specific methodology employed.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899071
10/10/19 07:00 PM
10/10/19 07:00 PM
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malkin Offline
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Originally Posted by Lorcar

...which kids find more amusing and interactive



I'm curious how this was determined.


Learner
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899073
10/10/19 07:12 PM
10/10/19 07:12 PM
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Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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It really doesn't matter what book or "program" that the teacher uses. A great teacher can make almost any method work. I had kids who came to lessons with hand-me-down books whose pages have turned yellow, and I managed to make those lessons work. It wasn't ideal, but the kid did fine.

In general, group lessons do not work. They tend to go very VERY slowly, and kids have many chances to develop bad habits that will be difficult to undo later on. However, that is not to say that either of the programs in the OP will not work. I'm open to the possibility that there are kiddie programs run by competent teachers.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899109
10/10/19 09:49 PM
10/10/19 09:49 PM
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terentius Offline
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“In general, group lessons do not work.” I agree that while it’s possible, individual lessons are better.

In Suzuki violin program individual teaching is supplemented by group classes. The core remains one on one lessons with the teacher and heavy parental involvement during practice; the parent learns with the young student, at least for a year or so.

Zoltán Kodály’s method was, I thought, more about children learning rhythm and a feeling for music than individual instruments which would follow later.

Of course, one can generalise, but you know your child, and we don’t.


“Modesty is a form of pride.”
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: terentius] #2899138
10/11/19 01:00 AM
10/11/19 01:00 AM
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mostlystrings Offline
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If a student is to learn complex and nuanced physical motions via a teacher's hands-on guidance, the problem with large group instruction is of course too many students for each to get sufficient individual attention. Suzuki violin groups are for children to learn by watching others, motivate and support others (and be motivated/supported), develop ensemble playing skills, etc. By definition, private individual lessons are less suitable for that. It depends on what one is looking to accomplish.

The quickest summary of Kodaly is music literacy through singing: the voice is the instrument because generally, everyone has one and can use it. Movable-do solfege is the basis for pitch training, rather than starting with 5-line staff and absolute names. I think there are sources that quote the man saying something to the effect of you should be well versed in solfege and sight singing before taking up an instrument, the implication being that you shouldn't rely on the instrument's sound production to find out what the next sound (pitch) is but should know what you want to hear before playing it via the instrument.

As to the original question, I agree that it's more the teacher than the program/method. It would certainly if you could observe a class, find out what students are doing after 6 months of study, or a year, or two, see if that path is something you'd like to be on.

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899143
10/11/19 01:50 AM
10/11/19 01:50 AM
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Lorcar Offline OP
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thanks to everyone.

I was also concerned about this "interval training" method vs a more classical approach. I found few threads not very positive on the subject.

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899148
10/11/19 02:38 AM
10/11/19 02:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,229
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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Originally Posted by Lorcar
thanks to everyone.

I was also concerned about this "interval training" method vs a more classical approach. I found few threads not very positive on the subject.

By "interval training," do you mean intervallic reading?


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899196
10/11/19 09:24 AM
10/11/19 09:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 354
Texas
Dr. Rogers Offline
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Originally Posted by Lorcar
thanks to everyone.

I was also concerned about this "interval training" method vs a more classical approach. I found few threads not very positive on the subject.


If it was my posts that made you concerned about intervallic reading, then please put your mind at ease. My qualms about it have mostly been eased. I doubt it will become my go-to method for all students, but in the hands of a competent, well-rounded teacher it's not a bad method.


Austin Rogers, PhD
Music Teacher in Austin, TX
Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko", Baldwin Upright, Yamaha P-255
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899280
10/11/19 03:12 PM
10/11/19 03:12 PM
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Posts: 8,229
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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Also, this intervallic reading thing isn't really "new" in the sense that it's been around since the 60's and 70's. Plenty of piano pedagogues preach its virtues.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899309
10/11/19 04:30 PM
10/11/19 04:30 PM
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Lorcar Offline OP
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thanks
so what would you suggest between the two?

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Lorcar] #2899337
10/11/19 05:29 PM
10/11/19 05:29 PM
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Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
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Originally Posted by Lorcar
thanks
so what would you suggest between the two?

Neither.

Get a private teacher. A really good one.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: AZNpiano] #2899391
10/11/19 10:05 PM
10/11/19 10:05 PM
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Sydney
terentius Offline
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Lorcar
thanks
so what would you suggest between the two?

Neither.

Get a private teacher. A really good one.


Yes.

Your title refers to a little Mozart: the original WA Mozart had an excellent teacher and he did a lot of practice, much more than most students I would wager.


“Modesty is a form of pride.”
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2899403
10/11/19 11:48 PM
10/11/19 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Regarding the group class, you might want to review this old thread.

I'm not good in remembering names. Is the group class Lorcar thinking about the same as the one in that thread? I remember there was something very particular about the way that one was run.

No, it's a related children's group music lesson however. I just think it would be valuable for the OP to see other parents' experiences with children's group music lessons, regardless of the specific methodology employed.

I looked at your present link. Those are actual established methodologies (Orff, Suzuki etc.) while the one you linked to was something cobbled together - that's why I don't think it's representative of anything. But that said, we're back to what AZNpiano rightly said - the methodology's effectiveness depends on the teacher, more than the methodology. Though a well designed, tested, and thought through methodology is some kind of a good start.

Btw, the (shutterstock?) picture they chose for violin lessons makes one sort of shudder.

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: keystring] #2899414
10/12/19 01:11 AM
10/12/19 01:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,043
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by keystring
I'm not good in remembering names. Is the group class Lorcar thinking about the same as the one in that thread? I remember there was something very particular about the way that one was run.
No, it's a related children's group music lesson however. I just think it would be valuable for the OP to see other parents' experiences with children's group music lessons, regardless of the specific methodology employed.
I looked at your present link. Those are actual established methodologies (Orff, Suzuki etc.) while the one you linked to was something cobbled together - that's why I don't think it's representative of anything.

You are incorrect. The OP in that thread compared it to Orff.

Furthermore, I don't think we know if it is exactly Orff Schulwerk without licensing materials from the Orff Schulwerk organisation. I've encountered this myself in New York City back when my daughter was young and I was looking for classes for her. There are classes based on formal methodologies which don't label themselves as such because they don't want to pay the proper licensing fees. Right or wrong, this happens.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2899509
10/12/19 01:10 PM
10/12/19 01:10 PM
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Posts: 17,208
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keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by keystring
I'm not good in remembering names. Is the group class Lorcar thinking about the same as the one in that thread? I remember there was something very particular about the way that one was run.
No, it's a related children's group music lesson however. I just think it would be valuable for the OP to see other parents' experiences with children's group music lessons, regardless of the specific methodology employed.
I looked at your present link. Those are actual established methodologies (Orff, Suzuki etc.) while the one you linked to was something cobbled together - that's why I don't think it's representative of anything.

You are incorrect. The OP in that thread compared it to Orff..


The OP said it might be like Orff. But remember, this is a parent who is not trained in music, who is trying his best to try to get on top of things when all he has is a gut feeling that something is not ok. There are systems that got developed such as Orff and Suzuki,where music teachers actually get trained into a tested and refined system. And then there are take-offs that sort of resemble a thing superficially, where the teachers are not trained in it etc. My impression, after examining it, was that it was the latter. If so, this particular example may not reflect much about group teaching. But it may say something about the importance of the teacher(s) whether you go one-on-one private teacher, or group.

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: AZNpiano] #2899740
10/13/19 11:48 AM
10/13/19 11:48 AM
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Lorcar Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Lorcar
thanks
so what would you suggest between the two?

Neither.

Get a private teacher. A really good one.


the Kodaly method is not group class. It's a private teacher. As far as being good, very difficult to assess beforehand.

Re: beginner 5yo: Kodaly method vs Alfred Music for little Mozar [Re: terentius] #2899743
10/13/19 11:52 AM
10/13/19 11:52 AM
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Lorcar Offline OP
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Originally Posted by terentius
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Lorcar
thanks
so what would you suggest between the two?

Neither.

Get a private teacher. A really good one.


Yes.

Your title refers to a little Mozart: the original WA Mozart had an excellent teacher and he did a lot of practice, much more than most students I would wager.


Well, WAM's father was a musician himself and he had decided that his son had to be a musician as well, and trained him as a monkey to be showed around.
My intention for my 5yo daughter is to give her a musical education, something that will be with her for her entire life, even without being a musician by profession. Also, i'd like her to be interested, rather than seeing it as a parents' imposition, which might also bring her to hate it.
Having been myself though the long boring hours of solfege simply bacause my parents wanted their kid to play the piano, i would rather choose a more modern method where they teach you to enjoy and develop your ear, maybe teaching also to improvise rather than having a Chopin's etude as 20y target.

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