2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
48 members (Auraltuner, Beowulf, 1957, Burkey, Carey, Bett, anotherscott, 9 invisible), 427 guests, and 379 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Beginner learning to play with both hands
#2899277 10/11/19 03:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
Hey

So about 2 months ago I came to this forum and asked about a 27, now 28, year old wanting to learn the piano and basically how hard the process would be for someone who hadn't even touched a single musical instrument before. Well I got myself an FP-30 and been trying learn by myself for about 45 days now, at least an hour a day. It's been fun and there's been a lot of progress since I started so thanks for the encouragement.

Anyway I wanted to learn a piece, I really like it, basically it's what made me want to play the piano, one of the reasons at least and it isn't particularly hard so that's fortunate.
I got the right hand and left hand parts down, but...trying to play them together seems almost impossible for me...when I try both hands it does not even resemble music... and even my right hand part which is quite simple I screw up, but playing just the right hand alone I wouldn't mess it up even if I tried. So yeah it's quite frustrating. My hands also always want to press the keys at the same time, rather than independently playing, if you know what I mean ?

Any tips/tricks or advice on how to learn to play with both hands playing together ? Any specific exercises I can do ? Is it too soon for me to try playing both hands ? Am I missing smth ?
This is my main obstacle atm and kind of making me lose motivation because both hands are somewhat important when you wanna try and play a song as it's meant to be played :P

Thanks in advance !

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899283 10/11/19 03:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,296
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,296
At the risk of telling you something you do not wish to hear …..

At the very least you should have a piano method book to help you with what to do and when.

To just start trying to play "something you like" is sort of like someone wishing to be a doctor and trying open heart surgery because they are very interested in that.

You need to start at a "beginning" and learn some skills not related to a particular piece of music.

A method book will do that for you.

Here is one that might work well for you ….

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0...3ef368b&pf_rd_r=Z9HVJ1ZG6C7GEKC5G0Z1



The best of course is ….. what ????

Right …. a teacher.

Good Luck

Last edited by dmd; 10/11/19 03:20 PM.

Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899289 10/11/19 03:44 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,984
Silver Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,984
Hi
Can you tell us, or include a snippet of what piece you are trying to learn hands together? Maybe we can offer specific suggestions. How have you been learning it? I know you can’t get a teacher, but how did you teach yourself the notes and rhythm? Have you been using a method book, online lessons? Internet Videos ?

Don is right: since you told us with your first post that you can’t have lessons, you need a plan and structure to learning. There are several different ones and those that are using them can make suggestions. Two threads you should look at are ‘Faber Graduates’ and below it ‘Method Book Recommendations’: both here in the ABF

It would also help somewhat to know what type of music you want to play: classical, pop, jazz?


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899291 10/11/19 03:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,765
O
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,765
If you are trying to learn the hands separately and then just put them together it just does not work that way. The secret of playing hands together is to learn them together, often note by note. So you play both hands together very slowly but with the correct rhythmic structure at first until "clicks". Start with something simple with few notes and gradually move to something more complex.

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899295 10/11/19 04:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,110
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,110
Very very very slowly and very very very slowly increase tempo. Sorry there is no substitute here for learning piano.
Learning separately is still a great idea but when you put your hands together it is like you're learning the piece anew.

Probably not what you wanted to hear but look on the bright side, you're young and stick with you will have a hobby to last a lifetime!


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899299 10/11/19 04:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 89
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 89
I tend to agree; try the new piece right from the start with both hands. You can later break out little segmentst and play them separately if they're giving you trouble.

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899350 10/11/19 06:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,948
E
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,948
I can sympathize because I remember this issue like it was yesterday. I guess it is the first major obstacle, but in the scheme of things it was also one of the easiest to overcome. The advice from Outo above is how I solved it, start simple, only a bar or two alternating between the hands. You may not get much past this initial exercise but a nights sleep will help, as it does for so many piano problems.


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
earlofmar #2899355 10/11/19 06:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by earlofmar
I can sympathize because I remember this issue like it was yesterday. I guess it is the first major obstacle, but in the scheme of things it was also one of the easiest to overcome. The advice from Outo above is how I solved it, start simple, only a bar or two alternating between the hands. You may not get much past this initial exercise but a nights sleep will help, as it does for so many piano problems.

Oddly, I didn't feel like I had any LH/RH issues back last February when I started. I think the reason is I spend the first three months playing with and in the Piano Marvel software and there were a lot of LH & RH exercises when you start from the very beginning as an absolute beginner in PM. I think working through any method book would have the same result because LH/RH coordination would be one of those things that piano teachers have always anticipated.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899359 10/11/19 06:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 584
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 584
Hey silence,

Your post really made me smile. Some years ago after a totally frustrating week of practice, I made the mistake of complaining to my teacher that playing the two hands together was just so hard. Her response was, "Of course it is hard. That is what playing piano is all about. That is why you have to practice."

To this day, it is still hard for me to put the two hands together when I begin a piece, but when if finally starts to happen, that is the magic that makes the piece flow. So don't get too frustrated. Rather look forward to the reward that is coming when it finally happens. As to tips for how to make it happen, that is not a mystery. Practice very slowly on just a short bit, a measure of less. Don't spend too much time doing that. Go sleep on it, your brain makes new connections over night. Next day, repeat the process. You are literally rearranging the way your brain is connected. You wouldn't expect to grow muscle tissue after a few sessions of weight lifting, neither can you expect to rewire your brain after just a few sessions of piano practice.

Now go practice. You can do it!


[Linked Image]
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
Tyrone Slothrop #2899360 10/11/19 06:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 246
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 246
I very rarely play hands separately. I just don't feel like it helps much since I'm essentially going to have to start over when I put them together anyway. I just break down the hard parts and go one note at a time. I don't worry about anything else... just pushing the correct keys in the correct sequence. When I get them coordinated, I start counting to make sure my rhythm is correct. Then I start speeding it up little by little until it resembles music.

I also agree that working through a method book is the way to go. Sometimes I look at my music and think, "Wow, that looks complicated!" But then I start and it's not complicated because I've built up to it.

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899384 10/11/19 09:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,667
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,667
I think playing hands separately is important, especially for complicated pieces like Bach. Getting comfortable and having each hand knowing where it's going, to me, solves many issues, especially the ability to hear separate voices clearly before putting them together. OF COURSE putting them together is going to be hard, it's working a different part of the brain! But IMHO, it's absolutely not a waste of time. My own teacher constantly reminds me to work hands separately much more than I do (I'm always in a rush to get the piece going), and things work out an awful lot better for me when I follow her advice. Everyone is different though. I personally don't find it to be a waste of time one bit.


Lisa

Playing RCM 8 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP & CLP645

"I tell my piano the things I used to tell you." - Frederic Chopin
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899389 10/11/19 09:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 63
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 63
I found that simple five finger exercises were very helpful.

In case you don’t know Silence, this just means at it’s simplest, having both hands in the same position, say two octaves apart, and playing without changing position.

First play the same notes in both hands, then play two notes in the left against one in the right, next change to two in the right against one note in the left.

Work up to three then four against one. You can find these and various exercises on YouTube if necessary.

This will help develop independence of the hands which is essential for playing piano.

From there you should be able to play simple pieces using hands together.

Of course as others have noted, there are still times when you need to play each hand alone to practice before putting them together.


Modesty is a form of pride.
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
ebonykawai #2899399 10/11/19 11:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,948
E
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,948
Originally Posted by ebonykawai
I think playing hands separately is important, especially for complicated pieces like Bach. Getting comfortable and having each hand knowing where it's going, to me, solves many issues, especially the ability to hear separate voices clearly before putting them together. OF COURSE putting them together is going to be hard, it's working a different part of the brain! But IMHO, it's absolutely not a waste of time. My own teacher constantly reminds me to work hands separately much more than I do (I'm always in a rush to get the piece going), and things work out an awful lot better for me when I follow her advice. Everyone is different though. I personally don't find it to be a waste of time one bit.



I tend to agree.
While hands separate v hands together seems to be as divisive as Hanon v no Hanon, I have found working HS very useful. My teacher is also a big advocate of working HS and going back to it when HT isn't working too well.


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899411 10/12/19 12:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 354
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 354
It's basically practice, practice, practice. If you must then just learn the first measure using both hands going as slowly as you must to strike the keys in the proper sequence. Then practice that until you can play it. Rinse and repeat. It will be horribly tedious at first but it will eventually come to you faster and faster. I am one of those "If there's a wrong way to do it, I'll find it" type of people but even I have managed to pass this hurdle. Keep at it and in a few years you will wonder why this was such a problem.


Kawai ES8
Yamaha P105
Yamaha YPT220

A lack of talent does not stop you from learning piano. It just takes longer and you have to work harder.

[Linked Image]
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899419 10/12/19 02:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,281
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,281
Hi Silence, you got great advice already, but one thing was not mentioned yet: sections. Don't just play through you piece, but divide it into sections, and practise each section. A section can be as little as four notes: two notes that you start with, and two notes that you do next. Most sections are a bit longer though, usually at least a measure. When playing sections, also make them overlapping.

And yes, it would be interesting if you could show us a snippet of the piece that you are trying to learn!


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899436 10/12/19 07:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 336
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 336
The way my method book prepares for playing hands together: It's just quarter notes with the right hand at first - with different intervals of notes. Then same for the left hand. Then they add half notes and whole notes - still hands separate. So now you have different intervals and different note values - but no eighth notes (eighth notes don't come until much later). Next they add counting to the your training. First clap and count, then play and count. Counting is a key skill. Then they add rests and introduce time signature. Then they introduce dynamics. Then they introduce 2nd and 3rd intervals and then harmonic intervals (including different note values and dynamics). At this point you get to right hand for two measures then left hand for two measures. Then they bring in 4ths and 5ths. It's at this point the first simple HT song comes using a melody in the RH and interval in the LH. Even with all that prep work, it was quite difficult for me at first.

You will get's lots of advise on this forum, but the bottom line is you have to figure out what works for you. There is generally not one simple answer that works for everybody. One of the key things for me is what Animisha just stated, break the song you are learning into sections (maybe start with the end?). I would also add to go very slow HT with a goal of not making any mistakes - if you make mistakes repeatedly your brain remembers. Let your brain sleep on it a night and it should be easier the next day. Work the section until you can count it while playing. Most beginners can not play fast-ish - so don't worry about that.

If the song you are learning has eighth notes I expect it will be quite difficult to start HT with that. Good Luck.


Progman
Baldwin Console + Kawai ES100
Alfreds bk 1 + Teacher
Long Live ELP
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899470 10/12/19 11:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 921
G
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 921
Don't worry, its normal :-)

Once you start using hands together it may feel as if you are starting from the very first time - the fingers seem to forget how to work and the brain just can't cope with the two things at once. But just like it got easier as you started practising with one hand, it likewise gets easier with two together. You just need time and practice for the fingers and brain to learn.

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899474 10/12/19 11:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,348
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,348
A few years ago I met a man who got into playing piano for 1 reason: his father had a degree in music and would play this piece (Debussy Clair de Lune) that he was so fond of. The man probably had a few lessons as a child and learned to read simple pieces.

Fast-forward 50 years he got hold of a second-hand upright from a friend and started playing right away. His approach to learning was so unconventional that no piano teacher or student who learned from a teacher would do it his way. He found a few online demo videos and would painstakingly imitate the finger sequences. He learned C d L that he remembered as a child in 6 months. The first 6 months this was the only piece he could play with confidence. The next 6 months he added several more pieces by ear. To this day nobody can convince him learning to read is the next step. He compared reading notes to a foreign language that is impossible to decipher. For someone who is retired, he has a lot of free time but wouldn't get a teacher since he would be forced to read.

His playing looked like someone who is at an advanced level but if you ask him the basics of counting beats he wouldn't be able to give you an answer. He just play from whatever he hears in his head with no regard for music theory.

The majority of us would start with a method book and the most basic pieces like the "Minuet in G" from the Notebook for Anna M Bach. After we mastered a few pieces at this level, we play more challenging pieces. Very few people would start with a Beethoven sonata or a Chopin nocturne and try to learn it from day 1 without reading a single note.

The books in my collection:
Alfred's Basic Adult piano course Book 1 & 2
Alfred's Adult Piano Adventures
The Royal Conservatory of Music Piano Technique Book
Hanon 60 exercises
Czerny piano studies

Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
thepianoplayer416 #2899483 10/12/19 12:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,296
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,296
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
A few years ago I met a man who got into playing piano for 1 reason: his father had a degree in music and would play this piece (Debussy Clair de Lune) that he was so fond of. The man probably had a few lessons as a child and learned to read simple pieces.

Fast-forward 50 years he got hold of a second-hand upright from a friend and started playing right away. His approach to learning was so unconventional that no piano teacher or student who learned from a teacher would do it his way. He found a few online demo videos and would painstakingly imitate the finger sequences. He learned C d L that he remembered as a child in 6 months. The first 6 months this was the only piece he could play with confidence. The next 6 months he added several more pieces by ear. To this day nobody can convince him learning to read is the next step. He compared reading notes to a foreign language that is impossible to decipher. For someone who is retired, he has a lot of free time but wouldn't get a teacher since he would be forced to read.

His playing looked like someone who is at an advanced level but if you ask him the basics of counting beats he wouldn't be able to give you an answer. He just play from whatever he hears in his head with no regard for music theory.

The majority of us would start with a method book and the most basic pieces like the "Minuet in G" from the Notebook for Anna M Bach. After we mastered a few pieces at this level, we play more challenging pieces. Very few people would start with a Beethoven sonata or a Chopin nocturne and try to learn it from day 1 without reading a single note.

The books in my collection:
Alfred's Basic Adult piano course Book 1 & 2
Alfred's Adult Piano Adventures
The Royal Conservatory of Music Piano Technique Book
Hanon 60 exercises
Czerny piano studies


And ….. your point is …...


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Beginner learning to play with both hands
silence21 #2899491 10/12/19 12:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
S
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 7
Woow so many replies in such a short time, thanks !

I'll try the very slow, one note at a time with both hands method daily and sleeping on it, that sounds like it would have best results for me. Since I started piano I've noticed how useless I was at scales or other excerises for example when the first time trying them, but just the next day after a good nights sleep I could play them quite well.

The piece I'm learning is Nuvole Bianche, quite popular and not super hard as it's quite repetitive, I learned by watching several different videos to see which notes are played and figure out optimal fingering etc. I'm aware that's not the best way of trying to learn a piece, but this is the case atm. I need to learn songs or bits of songs I like otherwise I lose interest very quickly. Don't get me wrong, I've picked up several exercises that I do daily from youtube videos also, so it's not like I jumped into learning Nuvole Bianche since the first day I got my piano.

I've also been dividing the song into sections, and really only focusing on the parts I have problems with. But I'll try even smaller sections when learning to play with both hands together I suppose.

Thanks for the comments.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Anthony Hopkins / National Cat Day
by MH1963 - 10/29/20 09:38 PM
Passable new string
by LemonColor - 10/29/20 09:06 PM
Faure Improvization
by cmb13 - 10/29/20 08:45 PM
Once upon a time there was a real Gors and Kallman
by Lady Bird - 10/29/20 07:01 PM
Practice advice
by 3B43 - 10/29/20 06:01 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics202,484
Posts3,018,571
Members99,068
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4