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Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895335 09/28/19 09:25 PM
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I respect mr SH’s comments, and my vote remains the same, and as raised before, names of those involved, past and present should be mentioned.

I don’t know Monica other than from here. Reading her tribute, her memorial service and listening to people who knew her: I wonder what she would think? The way she supported her family, friends and this forum, no one was allowed to be forgotten, she took them along with her-whether they knew it or not! She never shared her lows and only asked for help when she couldn’t any more. I suspect she would like to have others to be mentioned too, she was never the center of attention, but yet, she was the one that many gravitated towards.

In some traditions, there is 1 year period before any major decisions are made...so there isn’t a rush, emotions are sensitive right now.


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Re: Monica..
Tyrone Slothrop #2895338 09/28/19 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think I am seeing your issue now. You are thinking that such a vote should be by secret ballot? Is that correct? Actually, I asked Sam S about that and he didn't think the survey respondents could be controlled.

Also, I've only assembled views of those who publicly expressed views on this matter in this thread. If you are concerned there are those who would like to vote, but would like their vote to remain secret, I guess we should think again about whether or not an anonymous poll can be done but limited only to PW members. I'm thinking not since this forum lost it's poll mechanism many years ago.

I think it's more like the silent majority (lurkers) are not going to say anything or "vote" because they might worry about coming off as being disrespectful or insensitive an/or they don't want their name put on display.

But to add to or clarify my thoughts.. I feel the ones who have been here the longest and have known Monica the longest know what's best in this situation.
Also, in my opinion, honoring Monica with a dedication and leaving the recital name the same seems like a win-win to me. A win for anyone who thinks the recital name should remain the same, and a win for anyone who thinks Monica should receive honorable recognition in the dedication.


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Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895340 09/28/19 09:48 PM
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Removing my name. I haven't been around long enough to have a vote, I just fixed some punctuation wink


Since it seems we aren't going to do a survey, I have assembled the votes from this thread into 6 choice categories:

For renaming recital (23): Sibylle, barbaram, Tyrone Slothrop, cmb13, Morodiene, WiseBuff, dumka1, John305, tangleweeds, Tech-key, Animisha, Sam S, MarieJ, bSharp(C)yclist, jazzyprof, aTallGuyNH, Gary001, Pianoperformance, NobleHouse, johnstaf, casinitaly, Stubbie, LarryK,
Against renaming recital (5): mr_super-hunky, wouter97, Peyton, jotur, Roger Ransom
Undecided: For either a new name or just a dedication (2): Piano*Dad, Peyton
Undecided: For waiting until later to decide on renaming (0):
Undecided: For wishing we knew what Monica would have wanted (1): Handyman
Undecided: Did not come out explicitly for or against, but did acknowledged name change in a post (3): dogperson, Montuno, pathway

Anyone can change their votes anytime, if they wish and move into another choice category, especially the 7 of you out there that I've lumped into the four "undecide" choice categories, based on your comments, if any of you would like to throw into the first two choices.

Re: Monica..
TX-Bluebonnet #2895343 09/28/19 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TX-Bluebonnet
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think I am seeing your issue now. You are thinking that such a vote should be by secret ballot? Is that correct? Actually, I asked Sam S about that and he didn't think the survey respondents could be controlled.

Also, I've only assembled views of those who publicly expressed views on this matter in this thread. If you are concerned there are those who would like to vote, but would like their vote to remain secret, I guess we should think again about whether or not an anonymous poll can be done but limited only to PW members. I'm thinking not since this forum lost it's poll mechanism many years ago.

I think it's more like the silent majority (lurkers) are not going to say anything or "vote" because they might worry about coming off as being disrespectful or insensitive an/or they don't want their name put on display.

But to add to or clarify my thoughts.. I feel the ones who have been here the longest and have known Monica the longest know what's best in this situation.
Also, in my opinion, honoring Monica with a dedication and leaving the recital name the same seems like a win-win to me. A win for anyone who thinks the recital name should remain the same, and a win for anyone who thinks Monica should receive honorable recognition in the dedication.

Thank you for clarifying your viewpoint. All viewpoints should be respected and considered by the members here.


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Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895346 09/28/19 10:13 PM
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Does anyone have Monica’s daughter’s contact information or email? Maybe we should get guidance from her as to how best to honor Monica in the quarterly recitals.



Re: Monica..
PianogrlNW #2895347 09/28/19 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Does anyone have her daughter’s contact information or email? Maybe we should get guidance from her as to how best to honor Monica in the quarterly recitals.

I understand there are members such as Ken Knapp who are on facebook with her daughter, Athena.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895357 09/28/19 11:07 PM
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I'm not sure we should put Monica's daughter in that position. It could be awkward for her.

Re: Monica..
johnstaf #2895362 09/28/19 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
I'm not sure we should put Monica's daughter in that position. It could be awkward for her.


If it were about my mom, I would appreciate being consulted. Not sure why you think it is awkward. It sounds like like something my husband would say - a “guy” reaction - haha.



Re: Monica..
PianogrlNW #2895374 09/29/19 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW

If it were about my mom, I would appreciate being consulted. Not sure why you think it is awkward. It sounds like like something my husband would say - a “guy” reaction - haha.


Athena was touched by the idea of calling the recitals after Monica, so we know how she feels about that. Bringing her into the discussion before a decision is made could be a bit like us saying:

"We were going to call the recitals after your mother in recognition of her contribution to the forum and the recitals. Then we started to think about all the other people who were involved, so we're having second thoughts."

I'm not saying that's how she would see it, but she might. She has just lost her mother. I'm not sure we should expect her to take an interest in this discussion, other than to give her opinion on whatever it is we decide to do -after it has been decided.

Last edited by johnstaf; 09/29/19 01:07 AM.
Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895376 09/29/19 01:08 AM
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I'm not sure this type of non-scientific, public survey [with significant inherent flaws and built in biases] is what Monica would have wanted to happen. Actually, I'm positive Monica would not want her name associated with any kind of division within the group. It's actually the last thing she would have wanted.

There is a reason why the majority of people who 'don't' want to rename the recital are all seasoned, senior members who have been here a long time along with Monica for over a decade. We are all a 'quasi' extended family who have been fondly bickering back and forth with each other for nearly fifteen years [in some cases]. Over the past decade, we have all gotten to know each other fairly well and could probably speak for each others actions and desires on issues on this forum fairly accurately; even if our views differed.

It is for this reason that the majority of the senior members [who knew Monica far better than anyone else] want to leave the name of the recital alone because they know that is what Monica really would have wanted.

Monica was someone who liked to work behind the scenes to actually get things done instead of just endlessly discussing an issue to no end. She liked to be recognized for her efforts and accomplishments, [we all do!], but she never wanted to be the center of attention, [or controversy]. Several of the long time members have mentioned this and it is for a reason; .....IT'S THE TRUTH !

Here's the thing,....we all have more in common [on this issue] than not! We all have the same goal which is to honor the memory of Monica. Not really because of this reason, or that reason, but simply because we WANT to! This can easily be accomplished by adding a paragraph underneath the title of the recital in Monica's honor. There is nothing wrong with this as she had THAT much of an impact on just about everyone she met.

When it comes to changing the name of the recital, I would be for it in a heartbeat if I knew that's what she really would have wanted. I also would be equally against it if I knew she would not have wanted that. This is literally why I am against changing the name. Like many of the other senior members here, WE are the ones who truly knew her best over a period of many years, [decade]. We interacted with her on the forums. We exchanged many private messages with her over the years. I've had many personal conversations with her and exchanged many E-mails on piano and health issues. We knew her as well as the type of person she was.

I am Facebook friends with Monica and can contact her daughter if needed but I really don't want to as I'm not sure a 19 y.o teenager would accurately represent her moms wishes. They were are at very different stages of life and their decisions on things may come from from completely different view points. [Another potential flaw]

A decision based on a non-scientific, biased, public survey can not only be manipulative, it is irresponsible as the results can be completely inaccurate for so many reasons. This is NOT how it should be done [which is why ALL other type of elections/surveys are done in private]. Case in point:.. Hillary should be president [if all the polls surveys were accurate and correct. There not!]

I also must say that I am a bit perplexed as to why a few of the [much] newer members here[in the past year or so] are discounting the advice and recommendations of most of the senior members who actually knew Monica and personally interacted with her on and off the forum over the course of many years. I'm not sure I understand this so I'll ask you this: Do you want to do what YOU want to do?, or do you want to do what Monica would have wanted?

Re: Monica..
johnstaf #2895385 09/29/19 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by PianogrlNW

If it were about my mom, I would appreciate being consulted. Not sure why you think it is awkward. It sounds like like something my husband would say - a “guy” reaction - haha.


Athena was touched by the idea of calling the recitals after Monica, so we know how she feels about that. Bringing her into the discussion before a decision is made could be a bit like us saying:

"We were going to call the recitals after your mother in recognition of her contribution to the forum and the recitals. Then we started to think about all the other people who were involved, so we're having second thoughts."

Well put.

Originally Posted by johnstaf
I'm not saying that's how she would see it, but she might. She has just lost her mother. I'm not sure we should expect her to take an interest in this discussion, other than to give her opinion on whatever it is we decide to do -after it has been decided.

I agree on this too.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Monica..
mr_super-hunky #2895391 09/29/19 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
I'm not sure this type of non-scientific, public survey [with significant inherent flaws and built in biases] is what Monica would have wanted to happen. Actually, I'm positive Monica would not want her name associated with any kind of division within the group. It's actually the last thing she would have wanted.

But this is the way most decisions traditionally are made on forums. People discuss and a consensus is reached. Or people discuss and a majority has their way. Or people discuss and a forum owner or moderator jump in and decide for everyone. But what usually does not happen is people discuss and a minority make the decision. This is a collegial group and so I think we'd all prefer option 1 or 2. The forum owner and moderators appear content to let forum members decide such matters.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
There is a reason why the majority of people who 'don't' want to rename the recital are all seasoned, senior members who have been here a long time along with Monica for over a decade. We are all a 'quasi' extended family who have been fondly bickering back and forth with each other for nearly fifteen years [in some cases]. Over the past decade, we have all gotten to know each other fairly well and could probably speak for each others actions and desires on issues on this forum fairly accurately; even if our views differed.

The average forum age of supporters is 6.2 years. The average forum age of objectors is 13.0 years. 6 of the supporters have been on for more than 10 years. 4 of the objectors have been on for more than 6 years. Consequently, I don't believe that supporters on the whole are so new that they views should not count.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
It is for this reason that the majority of the senior members [who knew Monica far better than anyone else] want to leave the name of the recital alone because they know that is what Monica really would have wanted.

Monica was someone who liked to work behind the scenes to actually get things done instead of just endlessly discussing an issue to no end. She liked to be recognized for her efforts and accomplishments, [we all do!], but she never wanted to be the center of attention, [or controversy]. Several of the long time members have mentioned this and it is for a reason; .....IT'S THE TRUTH !

Did George Washington want all those bridges and monuments and statues after himself? Did anyone consult George Washington? The living provide tributes to the passed ultimately for the living, to remember the dead. Sometimes the statues are built for the community, because it can hardly be said many people die with the hope there will be statues built of themselves. Those dead are gone except in the memories of the living. I'm not saying Monica's wishes don't matter. I am saying Monica is gone and anything we do now in honor of her is ultimately for those that remain to honor her memory - a memorial and monument for the living. I'm not saying anything new here. This is in fact how our world works when people die, in most places.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
Here's the thing,....we all have more in common [on this issue] than not! We all have the same goal which is to honor the memory of Monica. Not really because of this reason, or that reason, but simply because we WANT to! This can easily be accomplished by adding a paragraph underneath the title of the recital in Monica's honor. There is nothing wrong with this as she had THAT much of an impact on just about everyone she met.

Of course.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
When it comes to changing the name of the recital, I would be for it in a heartbeat if I knew that's what she really would have wanted. I also would be equally against it if I knew she would not have wanted that. This is literally why I am against changing the name. Like many of the other senior members here, WE are the ones who truly knew her best over a period of many years, [decade]. We interacted with her on the forums. We exchanged many private messages with her over the years. I've had many personal conversations with her and exchanged many E-mails on piano and health issues. We knew her as well as the type of person she was.

You are essentially arguing that a small group who knew her for an average of 13 years know her significantly better than a larger group who knew her for an average of 6.2 years. Perhaps this is true. But memorials are not for small groups. They are for everyone. Everyone who is active on the forum will be living with whatever tribute we decide on and not only the small group that knew her the best.

Similarly, in most countries, we give an equal vote to young people even though they cannot possibly know their country as well as those much older. Yet they will live with the results of decisions just as those who are older.

I think any argument made on the basis of exclusivity is "potentially flawed." This is all in addition to the fact that as mentioned above, monuments, memorials, and the like are for the living. The dead is beyond caring. We can only hope that are in a much better place where these sorts of decisions are irrelevant.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
I am Facebook friends with Monica and can contact her daughter if needed but I really don't want to as I'm not sure a 19 y.o teenager would accurately represent her moms wishes. They were are at very different stages of life and their decisions on things may come from from completely different view points. [Another potential flaw]

When there is a final decision, I think we should check with the family and see if they concur. This is the usual and considerate thing to do.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
A decision based on a non-scientific, biased, public survey can not only be manipulative, it is irresponsible as the results can be completely inaccurate for so many reasons. This is NOT how it should be done [which is why ALL other type of elections/surveys are done in private]. Case in point:.. Hillary should be president [if all the polls surveys were accurate and correct. There not!]

Yet in a collegial forum, this is exactly how most decisions are made. non-scientifically based on people speaking up versus staying silent. The tally simply is an aggregation of the views on this thread, which is the usual way decisions are made. Including the original decisions about "Beginner and Beyond", etc.

Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
I also must say that I am a bit perplexed as to why a few of the [much] newer members here[in the past year or so] are discounting the advice and recommendations of most of the senior members who actually knew Monica and personally interacted with her on and off the forum over the course of many years. I'm not sure I understand this so I'll ask you this: Do you want to do what YOU want to do?, or do you want to do what Monica would have wanted?

Because ultimately, we all interpret and decide for ourselves what a good memorial is to Monica. You have chosen to do it through a certain prism. However not everyone might subscribe to your particular viewpoint on this matter. That's why we have these collegial discussions. Also, you've mentioned tenure several times. While tenure matters in life for certain things, such as Monica's former profession, one could argue that on a forum, there are more important things to the life, liveliness, and environment of a forum than tenure.


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Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895410 09/29/19 04:30 AM
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I have avoided a public voicing on this issue as I did not personally interact with Monica nor was involved in the development and maintenance of the ABF recital, but I find this discussion is no longer ‘collegial’ but disturbingly divisive and personal. I did not know Monica but I know enough about her to know she would be horrified.

We do all vote on this through our own prisms, so here is mine: this discussion should stop and a decision should be quietly made through group PM by those that actually were involved in the development/maintenance of the recital and/or those that actually interacted with Monica. This does not need to be a democratic vote of all votes being equal. In fact, all democratic governments do not have exactly a one man, one vote structure. Contact Monica's daughter, or not, but let’s stop this divisive conversation. It has crossed a boundary which should not happen here.

Enough said. I will not participate further in this thread.


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Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895427 09/29/19 06:02 AM
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This discussion is deteriorating, just like most internet discussions that go on too long. To argue over who knew Monica better is not helping the discussion and, considering the topic, unseemly.

I made the changes to the recital page that I think are appropriate - go look at recitals.pianoworld.com if you want to see what I decided.

Sam

Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895438 09/29/19 06:46 AM
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Tyrone : We can go back and forth and micro-nitpick each other to the granular level on this issue to death because that is what Monica would have wanted us to do right?

Your surveys are ridiculously flawed.

1.) They only include members who have read and kept up with this particular post. Many members don't follow every post every day [and their viewpoints may vary from the survey results but won't be reflected because they didn't participate in it] It's like taking a survey in a mall on a Tuesday morning and reporting the results as accurate. [Even though the only people surveyed were retirees!] It won't reflect the accurate opinion of younger people who may have a different response at all. You can 'influence' surveys and polls and their results to reflect any outcome you want depending upon the way the survey was conducted and administered.

2.) They are subject to peer pressure and other factors that could persuade and influence their decision since the answers are public. [Again, the Hillary versus Trump surveys]. Many people have said in public that they would vote for Hillary as they didn't want to be excoriated by their peers. But obviously, not all were telling the truth [publicly] as blue states [in the polls] ended up voting red.

3.) They don't have any form of control group to compare results against. [Double blind/repeatable results]

You say 'other' sites do surveys this way. Well that doesn't make them accurate. It means the sites you refer too are conducting completely bogus surveys which are probably published to persuade and influence other peoples opinions!

In addition, your posted statistics are completely erroneous as they don't account for a 'weighted value' which is imperative. Your statistics assume someone who has been on the forum for a few years but didn't really know Monica has the same understanding and relationship with her as someone who has interacted with her closely for more than a decade. The 'weighted value' of these people is significantly different. In springboard diving, a forward 2 1/2 somersault has a higher degree of difficulty than a front dive and thus is worth much more in terms of its weighted value and final numerical result when the weighted value is applied.

In my opinion, someone who has had a close personal relationship with someone for nearly 14 years would probably know and understand that person much better than someone who just joined the forum and has no relationship with the other person. The 'weighted value' is simply not the same.

You make the argument that "memorials are for the living". Well, I guess you're right about that. But what if the recently deceased person did not want to be memorialized? Should we disrespect their wishes? or should we do whatever we want anyway? [Personally, I'd do everything possible to respect and honor their wishes].

Anyway, rather than continue to dissect each others arguments and responses, and out of respect to Monica [ I'm positive that she would never have wanted this discussion to turn into a divisive argument amongst group members] I'm going to remove myself from participating in this discussion any further. I'm doing this because I just checked my magic eight ball and it said "Pissing contest ahead"! So I'm going to heed its warnings. This is not the thread to make sport out of debating each other.

I've stated my opinions as clearly as I can so whatever happens, happens I guess. I don't want to be the "winner" in this debate because "winning" is not my goal here. Publicly displaying my opinion, my relationship with Monica and the historical facts of the recital are and I've done that. So that's it.

Re: Monica..
Ken Knapp #2895441 09/29/19 07:12 AM
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Re: Monica..
Sam S #2895446 09/29/19 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam S
I made the changes to the recital page that I think are appropriate - go look at recitals.pianoworld.com if you want to see what I decided.

I think this is lovely and walks the line between the views discussed. I agree this works both for a title as well as for a dedication.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Monica..
mr_super-hunky #2895447 09/29/19 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
Tyrone : We can go back and forth and micro-nitpick each other to the granular level on this issue to death because that is what Monica would have wanted us to do right?

Dogperson and Sam S are right. We can continue to be super collegial and discuss, but at some point, the mere existence of the discussion itself becomes unseemly. I did try to move the discussion out of this thread earlier, but it didn't want to budge, so I guess I will just have to stop participating. If someone disagrees with Sam's suggestion, I will start a new thread for polite discussion.

Monica was a lovely person and I feel Sam's new suggested wording does honor to her memory without forgetting any history or those who came before.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Monica..
Tyrone Slothrop #2895449 09/29/19 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by mr_super-hunky
Tyrone : We can go back and forth and micro-nitpick each other to the granular level on this issue to death because that is what Monica would have wanted us to do right?

Dogperson and Sam S are right. We can continue to be super collegial and discuss, but at some point, the mere existence of the discussion itself becomes unseemly. I did try to move the discussion out of this thread earlier, but it didn't want to budge, so I guess I will just have to stop participating. If someone disagrees with Sam's suggestion, I will start a new thread for polite discussion.

Monica was a lovely person and I feel Sam's new suggested wording does honor to her memory without forgetting any history or those who came before.


Please please DO NOT start a new thread to discuss. Enough has been said and the conversation has become disgusting; if will not remain polite if started over. Once is more than enough.


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Re: Monica..
dogperson #2895450 09/29/19 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
if will not remain polite if started over. Once is more than enough.

Well, this conversation has remained polite, at least I've been polite and I cannot see where mr_super-hunky has been impolite. He appears to have also been polite at all times. But I agree this has gone on too long. I hope Sam has had the last word on this topic.


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