2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
33 members (Brahms4, BachToTheFuture, CyberGene, EB5AGV, AZNpiano, DSC, David B, Animisha, 9 invisible), 334 guests, and 385 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
#2892274 09/20/19 09:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
A
Abdol Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
I was wondering if it is possible that in the future updates, we can have USB Audio interface functionality in the MP series?! Yamaha added this feature to its Clavinova series through an update. Since MP series is capable of streaming audio on a USB flash drive, I thought maybe it's possible.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892280 09/20/19 10:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,642
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,642
No, this functionality must be built into the spec, it's not just a matter of changing the destination.

Yamaha could do it because they likely designed it from the beginning and just didn't finish in time for release, not because they came up with some clever code to hack new capabilities into their hardware.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Gombessa #2892297 09/20/19 10:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
A
Abdol Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by Gombessa
No, this functionality must be built into the spec, it's not just a matter of changing the destination.

Yamaha could do it because they likely designed it from the beginning and just didn't finish in time for release, not because they came up with some clever code to hack new capabilities into their hardware.


I know and understand what you are saying Gombessa. My question is maybe Kawai has the hardware capabilities but haven't invested in implementing the necessary drivers. MP7SE and 11SE can stream audio on a USB stick. So I maybe there is a chance to stream audio to PC and decode it there as well...


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892321 09/20/19 12:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
Directly connect an external USB audio interface from $200 Y/S UR242 to $500 RME Babyface pro, both of them will be better than the 44.1KHz/16bit DAC buit-in on Yamaha DP.


CA98+ART RM5~~RME ADI2 DAC
VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
robinlb #2892325 09/20/19 12:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
A
Abdol Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by robinlb
Directly connect an external USB audio interface from $200 Y/S UR242 to $500 RME Babyface pro, both of them will be better than the 44.1KHz/16bit DAC buit-in on Yamaha DP.


I don't think so? All of the samples in Yamaha musical instruments are recorded in 44.1KHz 16bit stereo (CD Quality) this is what Bad Mister has mentioned in Yamaha's official website.

Now if you record your Yamaha instrument through an audio interface, you will end up with an inferior audio quality as the audio first gets converted to analog (DAC) then back to digital (ADC). There is no way you get a better quality compared to the case when it is directly recorded digitally as no DAC/ADC involved.

There is a reason why many professional digital instruments come with an internal audio interface.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
robinlb #2892341 09/20/19 01:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 759
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 759
Originally Posted by robinlb
Directly connect an external USB audio interface from $200 Y/S UR242 to $500 RME Babyface pro, both of them will be better than the 44.1KHz/16bit DAC buit-in on Yamaha DP.

Ermm nope. Recording or playing back a 44.1KHz source at any other sample rate is completely nonsensical.

All you would end up doing is adding a ton of 0s to your data and blow up the size.
Then, depending on the quality of the resampling algorithm, you could indeed get artifacts. Not a problem in quality devices though.

It's like these dumb "high res" music files which are hyped up by some sellers. Put them through a spectral analysis and you'll never see a blip over 20KHz. Yay for "hi res".

Originally Posted by Abdol
Now if you record your Yamaha instrument through an audio interface, you will end up with an inferior audio quality as the audio first gets converted to analog (DAC) then back to digital (ADC).

No conversion involved, he is talking about USB audio streaming to an external device.

Last edited by Granyala; 09/20/19 01:29 PM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892412 09/20/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by robinlb
Directly connect an external USB audio interface from $200 Y/S UR242 to $500 RME Babyface pro, both of them will be better than the 44.1KHz/16bit DAC buit-in on Yamaha DP.


I don't think so? All of the samples in Yamaha musical instruments are recorded in 44.1KHz 16bit stereo (CD Quality) this is what Bad Mister has mentioned in Yamaha's official website.

Now if you record your Yamaha instrument through an audio interface, you will end up with an inferior audio quality as the audio first gets converted to analog (DAC) then back to digital (ADC). There is no way you get a better quality compared to the case when it is directly recorded digitally as no DAC/ADC involved.

There is a reason why many professional digital instruments come with an internal audio interface.


All having the Yamaha be a USB host means it can render external digital sources with its DAC. The functionality to record 16x44.1 on the keyboard is a separate thing. The audio interfaces suggested by robinlb are functioning as an external DAC instead of using the DAC in the keyboard. You don’t need an interface with ADC to do that, just a DAC.

Also, I’m not convinced that a Kawai MP7SE makes its internal recordings without doing D to A to D. It appears to me that you can run an external analog source into the keyboard, mix it with what is be played/generated on the Kawai, and record the mix as 16x44.1 on the keyboard.

Thus, the keyboard has an ADC. I don’t know if the mix happens in the digital or analog realm. It may render the Kawai as analog, mix in the analog realm, and then do the ADC on the mix, or it may run the external source through the ADC, mix with internal content in the digital realm and store the result. If just recording the Kawai it likely does the same thing either bypassing the mix stage or mixing with a null signal.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892428 09/20/19 05:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 759
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 759
I don't think it would make much sense to convert every signal to analog in order to keep the possibility open to merge two tracks and then reconvert them to digital again to store them on the USB medium.
It is likely that they have one A/D converter for the analog inputs and do the rest in the digital realm.

Maybe Kawai James can answer that one. You know... for science.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892435 09/20/19 06:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,642
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,642
Originally Posted by Abdol

I know and understand what you are saying Gombessa. My question is maybe Kawai has the hardware capabilities but haven't invested in implementing the necessary drivers. MP7SE and 11SE can stream audio on a USB stick. So I maybe there is a chance to stream audio to PC and decode it there as well...


I don't think so. There are plenty of experts on audio and component design who can chime in, but my understanding is that there are some fundamental differences at play. Just having a USB-to-device capability is not the same as having the final digital output pass through the transport and stream back into the computer.

Also, iirc when you record to USB, you are actually recording to internal memory first, and then it renders and writes the file to the USB stick afterwards, itc's not streaming an audio output to the stick in real-time.

I could be wrong here, but there have been USB interfaces and USB drives on DPs for decades, and only now are we seeing USB audio interface functionality becoming mainstream. I would imagine if what you said was possible, it would have been done years ago.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Granyala #2892455 09/20/19 07:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
Originally Posted by Granyala
I don't think it would make much sense to convert every signal to analog in order to keep the possibility open to merge two tracks and then reconvert them to digital again to store them on the USB medium.
It is likely that they have one A/D converter for the analog inputs and do the rest in the digital realm.

Maybe Kawai James can answer that one. You know... for science.


I agree that it would not make much sense. But historically there have been many implementations of tech products with designs that don't make much sense for the end user. Often the design decisions are driven by project schedules, or other non-fucntional requrements that are not based on value to the customer.

As far as whether a firmware upgrade could allow the keyboard to function as a USB host, there is the concept in USB of master and slave device. If the USB hardware in the keyboard supports the USB port functioning as a master, then it would be theoretically possible for a firmware upgrade to allow the keyboard to function as a USB host. DAC chips have gotten good enough over the years that you do not have to spend alot to get a serviceable external DAC and basic line mixer.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892476 09/20/19 09:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
All the Numbers and theories are not as convincing as one experimental test.
My friend and I run some VSTs and playback on our DPs. His Yamaha N1X has USB audio function, and he tested inputing the digital signal to the 44.1Khz/16bit DAC in his N1X, then output analog audio by DP stereo and additional monitors. The result is clear and hearable that it's worse than he use external DAC on UR44 or MINI DSP. No comparison, no harm.
It's very normal, cuz most of today's VSTs are in the format of 44.1Khz or 48Khz with 24bit. Some VSTs may provide 96K source in the future. Decrease code rate will lead to some sound deterioration by converting 24bit to16bit. This buiti-in DAC is originally designed to handle internal source of DP. That means if you want to use
VSTs and get better effect, choose an suitable external audio interface will be good.
Of course, USB audio and opening buit-in DAC is welcome and convenient to user, if you have other requirements not for using VST only, it may be very useful.

Last edited by robinlb; 09/20/19 09:05 PM.

CA98+ART RM5~~RME ADI2 DAC
VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892480 09/20/19 09:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
A
Abdol Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
My answer was purely based on the theory of DSP and do not have any knowledge of how hardware/software convert the signal.

I have not enough knowledge of the schematic diagram of MP series but in MOTIF XF as far as I remember analog input is treated separately and recorded through its own circuit. I don't think DAC occurs for the USB recording in MOTIF XF.

All I'm saying is someone like, Kawai James, can clarify this as none of us have enough knowledge of the schematic design of the hardware of these instruments.

Also, it's good feedback to Kawai, as I'm sure many users appreciate the existence of an audio interface integrated into their digital piano.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
robinlb #2892481 09/20/19 09:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
A
Abdol Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by robinlb
All the Numbers and theories are not as convincing as one experimental test.
My friend and I run some VSTs and playback on our DPs. His Yamaha N1X has USB audio function, and he tested inputing the digital signal to the 44.1Khz/16bit DAC in his N1X, then output analog audio by DP stereo and additional monitors. The result is clear and hearable that it's worse than he use external DAC on UR44 or MINI DSP. No comparison, no harm.
It's very normal, cuz most of today's VSTs are in the format of 44.1Khz or 48Khz with 24bit. Some VSTs may provide 96K source in the future. Decrease code rate will lead to some sound deterioration by converting 24bit to16bit. This buiti-in DAC is originally designed to handle internal source of DP. That means if you want to use
VSTs and get better effect, choose an suitable external audio interface will be good.
Of course, USB audio and opening buit-in DAC is welcome and convenient to user, if you have other requirements not for using VST only, it may be very useful.


Thanks robinlb, but I'm not talking about VSTs. I want to record the audio of my MP7SE directly into a PC.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892485 09/20/19 09:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 435
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 435
Host-side USB and peripheral-side USB are controlled by different hardware. Your PC has a host-side interface, and so does your piano. Your flash drive, phone, etc. have a peripheral-side interface.

You can never connect host-side to host-side, or peripheral-side to peripheral-side. The hardware doesn't support it.

I was initially thinking you could install Linux to enable peripheral-side USB however the hardware also needs to support it.

Someone has probably built a host-side to peripheral-side adapter in hardware.

USB On The Go is what I think it would have to implement:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go

Last edited by Burkie; 09/20/19 09:55 PM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892490 09/20/19 10:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,642
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,642
To enable what Abdol wanted, someone hacked together a digital interface for a Yamaha CP33 using a Pi/Teensy:

https://youtu.be/HqqZxtrXRKY


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892496 09/20/19 10:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by robinlb
All the Numbers and theories are not as convincing as one experimental test.
My friend and I run some VSTs and playback on our DPs. His Yamaha N1X has USB audio function, and he tested inputing the digital signal to the 44.1Khz/16bit DAC in his N1X, then output analog audio by DP stereo and additional monitors. The result is clear and hearable that it's worse than he use external DAC on UR44 or MINI DSP. No comparison, no harm.
It's very normal, cuz most of today's VSTs are in the format of 44.1Khz or 48Khz with 24bit. Some VSTs may provide 96K source in the future. Decrease code rate will lead to some sound deterioration by converting 24bit to16bit. This buiti-in DAC is originally designed to handle internal source of DP. That means if you want to use
VSTs and get better effect, choose an suitable external audio interface will be good.
Of course, USB audio and opening buit-in DAC is welcome and convenient to user, if you have other requirements not for using VST only, it may be very useful.


Thanks robinlb, but I'm not talking about VSTs. I want to record the audio of my MP7SE directly into a PC.

Is there a problem with recording to a USB drive and copying the file to a PC? The functionality you want is not USB hosting, but digital output.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
robinlb #2892498 09/20/19 10:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
Originally Posted by robinlb
All the Numbers and theories are not as convincing as one experimental test.
My friend and I run some VSTs and playback on our DPs. His Yamaha N1X has USB audio function, and he tested inputing the digital signal to the 44.1Khz/16bit DAC in his N1X, then output analog audio by DP stereo and additional monitors. The result is clear and hearable that it's worse than he use external DAC on UR44 or MINI DSP. No comparison, no harm.
It's very normal, cuz most of today's VSTs are in the format of 44.1Khz or 48Khz with 24bit. Some VSTs may provide 96K source in the future. Decrease code rate will lead to some sound deterioration by converting 24bit to16bit. This buiti-in DAC is originally designed to handle internal source of DP. That means if you want to use
VSTs and get better effect, choose an suitable external audio interface will be good.
Of course, USB audio and opening buit-in DAC is welcome and convenient to user, if you have other requirements not for using VST only, it may be very useful.


There is no benefit to 48kHz or 96kHz sample rates. 44.1kHz requires a very steep low pass filter to filter out noise above 20kHz (must be steep enough to fall to effectively zero by 22.1kHz, the Nyquist limit. This is difficult to implement, and it would be easier with 48kHz samples because you only need to go to zero by 24kHz, which is less steep. But modern DACs have incorporated well implemented low pass filters for 44.1kHz rendering. A higher sample rate would only matter if you wanted to encode and render content beyond 22.1kHz, which is inaudible.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Sweelinck #2892504 09/20/19 11:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
A
Abdol Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by Sweelinck

Is there a problem with recording to a USB drive and copying the file to a PC? The functionality you want is not USB hosting, but digital output.


Convenience and the elimination of a mixer/audio interface to audit everything through you PC. When I connect my MOTIF XF to my macbook, I hear everything through my MOTIF XF's headphones output (MOTIF XF turns into an audio interface). I can record multi-channel outputs/inputs and play along with other audio files in a DAW. and I can also use the USB as a MIDI connection. If there was no audio interface, I had to either buy a digital mixer or an external audio interface.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892524 09/21/19 01:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,062
You are describing two distinct functionalities that would need to be added to the Kawai:

1. Having the keyboard function as a USB-interface DAC/soundcard

2. Having the keyboard be able to output in digital format.

Perhaps these are being multiplexed over a single USB cable/connection when you record.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: USB audio interface for Kawai MP series possible?
Abdol #2892536 09/21/19 02:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
Originally Posted by Abdol

Thanks robinlb, but I'm not talking about VSTs. I want to record the audio of my MP7SE directly into a PC.


OK, understood. In this case, you can only use USB stick to record and transfer wav data to your PC, and obviously it's not so convenient to transfer digital audio to PC than through bi-directional USB audio.
Cuz I have already used VSTs, and always recorded my playing sound in DAW host software directly.

Last edited by robinlb; 09/21/19 02:33 AM.

CA98+ART RM5~~RME ADI2 DAC
VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Etude played by computer
by GHN - 08/05/20 01:54 AM
Questions on selling my Baldwin L 6'3" Grand Piano
by ivorytux - 08/04/20 11:18 PM
1980s Baldwin Factory Question
by bensbaldwin - 08/04/20 10:21 PM
Alwin Bar
by Frankni - 08/04/20 10:20 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,722
Posts2,988,293
Members98,024
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4