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Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? #2892235
09/20/19 07:24 AM
09/20/19 07:24 AM
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Amanda_S Offline OP
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Hi guys,

I'm a newcomer looking for some advices on digital pianos. An accoustic piano isn't possible for me, at least for now (the stairs that lead to my flat do a 180° turn, plus I like doing things late at night, so I'd rather be able to play with a headset).
I'm an almost begginer: in fact I've practiced for 4 years when I was a kid (from age 5 to 9) but stopped 12 years ago for some stupid reasons, and I've been regretting this decision for many years...
I know that getting some lessons would be better, but I can't afford them and the buying of the instrument at the moment. I think I'm okay with the basics such as positionning, reading a sheet music, etc. So it should be a bit easier than starting from zero, even if not ideal.

I've got my eyes on two Casio models right now: the Ap-270 and the Ap-470. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to test them, because they aren't available in close shops (even in those that are an hour drive away; Korgs and Kawais are nearly impossible to find here as well).
Do you have any opinion on these? Is the Ap-470 worth the extra 150 euros (at least they're about 150 euros apart here in France)?

Otherwise, do you have any other models to suggest? Knowing that my criterias are the following:
  • I want a furniture stand, and I'd prefer to get an integrated cover for the keyboard (I've got two cats, so I'd rather not have them jump on it).
  • I've tested a few models at my local store, and prefer those with textured keys, but it's not a deal breaker if the model's really worth it.
  • I'll probably be mostly using piano sounds, and don't really care about it having other functions.
  • I've got a budget of around a 1 000 euros maximum.


Thank's for your help grin

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Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892236
09/20/19 07:41 AM
09/20/19 07:41 AM
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Sheffield, UK
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KevinM Online content
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I learnt as a child for a few years longer than you, but my break before taking up the piano again was much longer.

One of the things I have realised is that yes, you should go and test out the pianos yourself, but be aware a lack of experience means it is really hard to make an informed decision when your skill level is low.

I liked the keyboard action of the Casio AP-470 when I tried it out (I think the 270 has the same action) and that is what I bought. But as I kept regaining skill from my lessons as a child I started to find the action limiting. It is too light. So after about 6 months of use I was wanting to upgrade.

But I'm not sure what are better options within your budget of a console style DP with a better action.


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Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892270
09/20/19 09:41 AM
09/20/19 09:41 AM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Amanda, it would help if you give your location. People in your region might be able to suggest a retailer.

You say it's hard to find a Kawai? It's funny ... when I lived in Florida I could not find a Kawai anywhere. But here in North Carolina I have a local shop with nearly the full line of Kawai digital pianos (and acoustics, too).

Anyway ... if there are no Kawais near you, don't forget to look at Yamahas and Rolands.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892316
09/20/19 12:05 PM
09/20/19 12:05 PM
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The Casios have decent sounds; the latest are better still. The 470 would be a better bet, I'd think; you'll hear demos on YT no doubt, but it's best to try them all out if you can since they'll all feel different to play, even though they have sound similarities.


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Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892371
09/20/19 02:45 PM
09/20/19 02:45 PM
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Casios are generally regarded as good budget options.

Perhaps consider the Casio PX line as well (PX 760, 870 etc.), especially if you plan to play mostly though headphones. Same sound and action as the APs (including key texture) and they have a sliding key cover but slightly smaller and lighter (possibly easier to get in and out of your flat), smaller amp/speaker and less expensive.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892552
09/21/19 04:57 AM
09/21/19 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Amanda_S
[*]I want a furniture stand, and I'd prefer to get an integrated cover for the keyboard (I've got two cats, so I'd rather not have them jump on it).
[*]I've got a budget of around a 1 000 euros maximum.


How about:
- Yamaha YDP-S54
- Yamaha YDP-164
- Roland F-140R
- Roland RP-501R
- Kawai KDP-70 (Not available in Europe?)
- Kawai KDP-110

And a selling point for the Celvianos vs. the Privias would that the latest Celvianos have another piano sound i.e. the "American Grand". So if one happens to dislike Casio's usual "Hamburg Grand" then you have another option. The pedals might also be larger and further part. I'm not sure about that.

A selling point for the other model listed above vs. Casios would that they might have more robust key actions. At least in the past Casios had a tendency to develop significant extra noises over time. And they might be better in other senses too.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2892554
09/21/19 05:05 AM
09/21/19 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

...
A selling point for the other model listed above vs. Casios would that they might have more robust key actions. At least in the past Casios had a tendency to develop significant extra noises over time. And they might be better in other senses too.

A selling point for the others is that they have a brand name other than Casio. I think with a budget of around €1k a PX-870 is hard to beat. And I've read quite a bit about problems with Yamahas and Kawais developing key noises and sticking. I've had my "budget" Casio for over a year now and have had no problems. It's funny to see someone say "I'm thinking about a Casio" and then the flood of "you should pay a little more for *real* Kawai or Yamaha or Roland quality" responses. Like clockwork.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2892559
09/21/19 05:32 AM
09/21/19 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
A selling point for the others is that they have a brand name other than Casio.


That looks like your personal opinion. At least you are not quoting anyone in this discussion.

What I see here are some positive remarks on Casio: "I liked the keyboard action of the Casio AP-470", "The Casios have decent sounds; the latest are better still.", "Casios are generally regarded as good budget options." and then some relevant facts.

And the OP was open to other brands too: "Otherwise, do you have any other models to suggest?"

So, it's not forbidden or rude to mention Yamaha, Kawai or Roland.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2892560
09/21/19 05:42 AM
09/21/19 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
A selling point for the others is that they have a brand name other than Casio.


That looks like your personal opinion. At least you are not quoting anyone in this discussion.
Most of the reflexive hosannas for Yamaha, Kawai et al are personal opinion as well.

Quote
And the OP was open to other brands too: "Otherwise, do you have any other models to suggest?"

So, it's not forbidden or rude to mention Yamaha, Kawai or Roland.
Oh, it's not forbidden. Actually it seems to be a requirement. grin

I'd still say that *factually*, within the OP's budget, the PX-870 is hard to beat.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2892567
09/21/19 06:25 AM
09/21/19 06:25 AM
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clothearednincompo Offline
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Oh, it's not forbidden. Actually it seems to be a requirement. grin


It's called "providing useful information". wink

Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I'd still say that *factually*, within the OP's budget, the PX-870 is hard to beat.


Could be. And it's well within the budget. Probably between 800...900 €. Some others might be very close or above the arbitrary 1000 € limit. And you need to invest in a nice bench too.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2892569
09/21/19 06:34 AM
09/21/19 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo


It's called "providing useful information". wink
It can be useful information; it can be just subjective opinion, which can also be useful; it can be so much advertising and brand worship. Caveat lector.


Quote
Could be. And it's well within the budget. Probably between 800...900 €. Some others might be very close or above the arbitrary 1000 € limit. And you need to invest in a nice bench too.
Yes, I suppose you'd have to do that with any of them, unless as with mine it came as part of a bundle. I already had a piano bench that can do double acoustic/digital duty so never have even put the included piano bench together. I use an ordinary chair with a back, myself.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892570
09/21/19 06:58 AM
09/21/19 06:58 AM
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magicpiano Offline
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Sometimes it's just a problem of relating in our mind some types of products to some brands.
Yamaha and Kawai brands are very well known for their fine acoustic instruments, so people are naturally more attracted to them if they think about anything related to a "piano"...
When I think about Casio brand, the first thing that comes to my mind are digital wrist watches and scientific calculators that I remember from my school time (some decades ago). There is nothing wrong with that, but what you are used to relate to a brand in your mind is very difficult to dissociate or change after decades.
Roland is different because it has always been well known for producing good synthesizers and keyboard synthesizers. So, it's easier to relate the Roland brand to digital pianos.

But if you are much younger than me, probably for you Yamaha, Kawai, Roland, Casio and all the others competitors are just "brands", and that's good, because in this way you can make a better unbiased choice.

I think the AP-470 in its price range is a very good product. I don't know if you can find something better for € 869... Of course if you can spend more there are better choices.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: magicpiano] #2892579
09/21/19 07:43 AM
09/21/19 07:43 AM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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I think this generalization applies to my thinking about the brands ...
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Yamaha and Kawai brands are very well known for their fine acoustic instruments, so people are naturally more attracted to them if they think about anything related to a "piano".

When I think about Casio brand, the first thing that comes to my mind are digital wrist watches and scientific calculators that I remember from my school time.

Roland is different because it has always been well known for producing good synthesizers and keyboard synthesizers. So it's easier to relate the Roland brand to digital pianos.

Two things:
1. We know the pianos we use. We know the pianos we can find in the shops.
To that point ... it's hard to know Rolands because they're hard to find.
It's hard to know Casios because they're hard to find.
Around here the only models of those brands that I've seen are (a) very low end or (b) stage pianos. I just don't see any consoles around here.

2. Perhaps Casio would do better by selling pianos under a different brand name?
Branding is a powerful force, and if you're known for calculators it's hard to make a name in pianos.

That is, until you get "over the hump". Yamaha did. They make a wide range of non-piano products, all of them under the Yamaha brand.
And people don't seem to turn their noses up at Yamaha pianos just because they know that Yamaha makes motorcycles.

Casio brand just hasn't yet reached that stage.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: magicpiano] #2892581
09/21/19 07:43 AM
09/21/19 07:43 AM
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clothearednincompo Offline
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Sometimes it's just a problem of relating in our mind some types of products to some brands.


And other times people have actually gone to the music store and played on Casios and other brands without any prejudice and decided that they like the others more than the Casios for various reasons. And sometimes vice versa and Casio is the winner. It's actually arrogant to dismiss any criticism on the "Sacred divine entity known as Casio" as "Casio bashing" as if the opinions were not well educated and reasonable.

Sometimes it's also a matter of measurable facts such like the infamous pivot length that people sometimes obsess here about. For valid reasons. Or the implementation and performance of the triple sensor design.

We are drifting away from the actual topic. How about a separate thread for analysing the mysterious and complicated nature of "Casio Bashing(TM)"?

Amanda_S is trying find a digital piano and we are metadiscussing. How rude of us! laugh

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2892583
09/21/19 07:57 AM
09/21/19 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
...It's actually arrogant to dismiss any criticism on the "Sacred divine entity known as Casio" as "Casio bashing" as if the opinions were not well educated and reasonable.
I don't think anyone's referred to Casio as a "sacred, divine entity". The only ones I see referred to that way are the Yamaha-Kawai-Roland-Korg quartet.

Quote
Sometimes it's also a matter of measurable facts such like the infamous pivot length that people sometimes obsess here about. For valid reasons. Or the implementation and performance of the triple sensor design.
...

Measurable facts can also be interpreted subjectively. Let's say Yamaha's standard key length is half a millimeter longer than Casio's. That will probably be immediately counted in Yamaha's favor, regardless.

I'd say the OP's best options are any of the Casios mentioned, from a bang-for-your-buck standpoint.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892586
09/21/19 08:05 AM
09/21/19 08:05 AM
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I'll say again ... all this brand loyalty is pish-posh.

I'm not a loyalist.

I have a Yamaha, an old one. You can bash it if you like. I do! It sux.

Will I buy another Yamaha? Maybe. But I tried a Kawai that I like, so maybe that one.

Loyalty is an emotion that I don't need.

Is the OP (Amanda) a loyalist? That remains to be seen.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892587
09/21/19 08:07 AM
09/21/19 08:07 AM
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There’s no such thing as “Yamaha-Kawai-Roland-Korg” quartet being considered sacred. I think you’re biased or haven’t followed this forum in details. I have seen pretty few praises of Korg pianos throughout the years and I myself would buy a Casio over Korg. Roland are bashed a lot for their modeled sound which to many people sounds synthetic and cheap. The FP30 have been praised but also bashed to death by more vocal members on the forum with the “bongo” thing that came from one such member. Kawai are regularly bashed for their reliability and if one should believe only this forum Kawai are the least reliable pianos at all. Yamaha have been one of the least favorite pianos here on the forum for years. It’s been only after the P515 and newest CLP-series that they got some attention but are still being bashed for the overly heavy actions with unrealistic initial resistance, as well as for the GHS action which is unequivocally considered the worst entry level piano action. They are also criticized for being overpriced. And many people often recommend Casio pianos to other people, especially the entry level ones with rarely any objection or bashing. It’s been the GP pianos that took some bashing due to their usage of “hybrid” in their marketing and that same has happened with Kawai GF actions in the past.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/21/19 08:14 AM.

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Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: MacMacMac] #2892588
09/21/19 08:10 AM
09/21/19 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'll say again ... all this brand loyalty is pish-posh.

I'm not a loyalist.

I have a Yamaha, an old one. You can bash it if you like. I do! It sux.

Will I buy another Yamaha? Maybe. But I tried a Kawai that I like, so maybe that one.

Loyalty is an emotion that I don't need.

Is the OP (Amanda) a loyalist? That remains to be seen.

I like my "budget" piano and it doesn't have anything to do with loyalty to Casio, although I do have a couple of G-Shocks and a calculator that I also like. I just think that at a certain price point some brands are better deals and some are relatively overpriced. I think the best advice is try everything in person. If someone does so and absolutely prefers a Yamaha or Kawai, more power to them.

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: Amanda_S] #2892589
09/21/19 08:16 AM
09/21/19 08:16 AM
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Amanda_S Offline OP
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Wow, I didn't expect that much answers in such a short period of time, thank y'all for giving me so many advices!

I can't reply to everything that was said, but to adress my major concern about the PX line: I've heard many people complaining about the only piano sound available, so that's why I was slightly more drawn towards the AP line (even if, honestly, to my unexperienced ears, the german grand sound seems perfectly fine).

To answer to Mac who asked where I came from: I live in the north of France, near Belgium. So yeah, the Kawai KDP-70 suggested by clothearednincompo seems to be unavailable here (the KDP-110 is though).

About all the other suggested models, as they're all (except for the KDP-110) at a bit higher price point than the Casio ones, I'm wondering: are they worth the extra money? I can invest a bit more if it's worth it of course, as I don't inted to buy another instrument in the next months, but it's really complicated to compare them based on what you see online. I'm still surching for a retailer with a greater choice of DP...

And honestly, I don't have any particular affection for any brand, I was originally looking at the Roland FP-30, but realized I'd much prefer a real "furniture like" instrument as I don't have any need in moving it around ^^' Just trying to invest my money on something that'd please me for a few years (even if I don't know if that's possible within my budget).

Re: Casio Ap-270 vs Ap-470: advices? [Re: rmns2bseen] #2892590
09/21/19 08:26 AM
09/21/19 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
I don't think anyone's referred to Casio as a "sacred, divine entity".


Yep. Not an exact quote. wink

(Just bad humour.)

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