Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai

Hi everyone.
Well, how to say that....? ;-)

This thread has been really difficult to follow as it became the “ never ending “war between digitals and acoustics ( it has nothing to do here for so many pages) egos “attacks” susceptibilities, bla-bla-bla...

Could we come back to the original question?
What makes the difference between Kawai and Yam ?

I think it’s the perfect place for technicians to give their thoughts on that, with factual information, the way they are built, and not just with:

“Kawais are warmer and yam brighter”....( I‘ve heard that million times, ok, now Iknow, I know... ;-) )

Is it really so simple?

I m sure differences exist in the way they are built. materials employed etc..

Here to begin, just a video from Sean o Shea , explaining the advantages of the Kawai action.
Several other videos exist as well for the k300/500etc and the GX black series.

Ok, we know it’s an advertisement, but at least, it gives informations.
( that could be argued)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rViGugywLC4

This folk definitely employed screwdriver to show how RH changes will affect the play in flanges
Simple calculation shows that for 1 cm tall redwood or red cedar flange the 30% change in RH would mean ~0.3mm play, for spruce - ~0.4mm. But keep in mind that this is not a daily change in the air RH, but lond lasting effect, because the wood woud need a lot of time to fully soak the moisture through the whole depth, and even more time to release it back. And such play can be mitigated by a proper shim to some degree. Not mentioning that a wood sealant will slowdown the process tremendously.

It does not mean the composite flanges are useless - they do improve stability without affecting the sound, and in the long run are probably more environment friendly than wooden ones.

Yes my old 60's Kawai grand was always accurate in its response and I lived for quite a while in a very humid place.It had a wooden action.When we moved the piano to Vancouver it was fine !
After we were here for a few months a very well recommended technician RPT regulated,worked on
the piano.He was amazed at how good the piano was!(2001) So were we ! But not really it was always great !
So although Kawai has improved thier pianos even the old ones were fine !
Videos like this exaggerate !

Humidity and temperature changes affect not just wooden flanges. They also affect the soundboard and other wooden components. As such all acoustic pianos need proper precautions to control humidity and temperature changes. If the owner of an acoustic piano is just following/maintaining proper environmental controls (ie humidity stability) I don't really see what advantage composite flanges have over traditional wooden ones. Maybe Kawai can claim they build actions with composites with better tolerances that improve the performance of the action but there is really no advantage to action longevity or stability if common sense humidity control measures are in place as they should always be to protect the piano as a whole. What use is a perfectly stable action if the soundboard or bridge is warped or cracked?

You seem to be extremely biased against anything that's not acoustic.

I think only a small percent of pianists and even smaller percentage of pros would prefer(as you do) an old beat up vertical to a high quality digital or hybrid like the Avant Grand. IMO a poor vertical would almost always be very inferior in both tone and touch.

I also think it's not true that one can't learn good piano technique on a digital or even a very high quality digital or hybrid. YouTube has many examples of excellent pianists, mostly non classical performers, who learned and play almost exclusively on digitals. After all, the whole point of hybrids like the Avant Grand is to duplicate the touch of an acoustic.

None of the above means I don't think a good acoustic is preferable to even the best digital or hybrid. My own piano is a newish Mason BB.

Well what you think "seems" to be the case is just not the case. I admit I am biased against digitals when compared to acoustics. Most experienced pianists would be. But I do recognize their usefulness in many situations. If I was so biased against them why would I purchase a digital piano on the very same day I purchased my latest acoustic grand?

You can be critical about certain aspects of acoustic grands or digitals without having a complete dislike for one or the other. If I had no choice but to use a digital, then a digital it is. In fact, if you look at my posts in the past few months you will see I spent an inordinate amount of time asking questions in the digital forums of which digital I should purchase and I went ahead and purchased a digital.

It is when posters succumb to the silly notion of it is us versus them to the point that they start losing objectivity and spreading false information that can be detrimental to people looking for unbiased information on a piano purchase that I get disturbed. I feel it is particularly harmful for parents with children who are trying to decide which is the best purchase for their family when the child is just beginning to take lessons. I firmly believe unless they are unable to manage it, get an acoustic as soon as possible.

What people fail to recognize is by definition an acoustic piano IS the ideal that all digital piano manufacturers are trying to aspire to. This is not bias, this is the truth. The digital piano is not trying to become a new class of instruments like synthesizers of yesterday, they are trying to reproduce everything that makes an acoustic piano, an acoustic piano. That's why they spend so much time introducing new actions, new samples, new speaker technology, replication of vibrating strings, even the piano gloss casing is being replicated. All those arguments you see in the forums down to the most minute detail or to complex mathematical algorithms is all in the desire to make their digital pianos sound and play like the real thing. The bias is ALWAYS towards the acoustic piano because that is exactly what they are all working so hard to aspire to.

You might as well ask the manufacturers why they are so biased towards the acoustic grand piano.

Is any part of this Sean o Shea video factually incorrect?

Here's a post on good digital pianos under $2500 that I started back in March if anyone is interested since it seems the conversation has gone in that direction, but let's keep it to digital pianos in this topic. Thank you. Digitals under $2500 inquired by Jethro

acoustics rather. Aye Karumba!

I don't know why you bought a digital although my guess is you want the ability to practice with headphones and not disturb others or one of the other features of a digital. I think I made it clear as have most other posters that in terms of touch and tone almost everyone at every level would prefer a very good acoustic to even the best digital.

But my post was about your comment about preferring an old inferior quality vertical to a top digital or even an Avant Grand. The fact that you said you'd probably prefer the old upright and other posts where you said something like digitals were destroying the art form is what makes me think your perspective on digitals is extreme compared to most. I strongly believe experienced pianists and professionals would overwhelmingly choose the digital/hybird in the comparison under discussion.

I don't think one can discuss "digitals when compared to acoustics" in a meaningful way because any comparison depends on the quality of the digital/hybrid and the quality of the acoustic.

On the bolded, let's be fair this is NOT what I said.

I said when people start claiming that the digital piano is the equal on an acoustic then we watering the standards by which judge the art form. Digitals are not destroying the art form. I use them to practice- to work out fingering, to work on basic hand positioning. My accomplished piano teacher uses them as part of her practice when she doesn't have access to an acoustic. They are useful study aids. But it is when we misrepresent what they are capable of doing and spread misinformation that they can do more than what they are capable of doing and people start choosing them in lieu of an acoustic based in this misinformation, then we start weakening the art form because if the industry doesn't survive, the art doesn't survive. This is what the president of Yamaha meant when we said when we no longer give value to the instrument as integral part of culture then they won't survive and art won't survive.

But yes, even today I would choose to play an old upright (to practice with) over a top digital for many reasons. One, I'm not a fan of sampled technology. I find limited layers of coloration possible. I feel a lack of sensitivity and response in the most keyboard actions- not just the action itself but the critical interface where depress a key and expect a specific tone to be produced. I dislike the grossly inaccurate soundstage produced by a limited of speakers oriented in unnatural way that does reproduce the spatial qualities one would expect from a real soundboard. I don't like the lack of sonority and raw power that an acoustic can elicit at the press of a key with a digitals more often than not weak amplification system. I don't like the lack of tactile feedback I feel through the keys when a hammer is purportedly hitting a string. As a total experience, the digital piano is lacking, inorganic, and counterfeit.

So yes, even an old rickety vertical HAS these qualities and if the sound is not so great, and even it's a little of tune- I still feel connected to it and we can still become fast friends and partners in making of music. It's not just about the quality of the sample- no matter how expensive and rare the piano they recorded from. It's the total experience where the digital piano fails as a performance instrument.

I think your distinction between what I said and what you say you said is splitting hairs in the extreme.

IMO your above post and even its length is just another example showing that your opinion is an extreme one. One that would not be shared by most pianists of all levels.

The whole purpose of hybrids with actions like the Avant Grand is to duplicate the feel of an acoustic including any vibrations some pianists(but certainly not all) feel. As far as I know the AG has been very successful in terms of its sales. I don't think people would be willing to pay the extra cost vs. most digitals if the idea behind the AG was not satisfactorily achieved.

Well, if length of posts purport to relate to extreme opinions I'd love to know what's exactly in your 25,000 + posts. Either they are extreme or you sure seem to have a lot of opinions. I unfortunately have to go extremes to explain and repeat something in such detail to someone doesn't appear to understand the simple message that is being told to him

Also I'd love to know who's buying those AGs, you think piano majors are falling over themselves after graduation to get one of those?

I do not know but I think if one believes that accoustic is what works and digital pianos do not, then
perhaps just leave it at that ! For example if I have a firm belief that plexiglass pianos sound like the REAL thing should we not leave it at that .Perhaps wood pianos do not make musical sense to me for whatever reason therefore just ignor my posts rather than insisting I change ?
I realise that always writing posts about negative aspects of digital pianos may cause some people some pain however.So we need to be sensitive!
Especially those who inwardly would love an accoustic piano but for whatever reason (and there are
REAL reasons where it may not be possible to own an accoustic piano ) are unable to own one.

Jethro, when somebody disagree with your simple message, it does not necessarily mean they don't understand it. They just happen to have their own opinion that differs from yours. And their opinion is as subjective as yours. Just take a deep breath and relax - we cant even say for sure that the world around us is real, and is not just product of imagination of our brain 😉

Hi Lady Bird I would hope that not be the reason. I'm firmly positive everyone will get that opportunity to eventually own one and I want them to. Some may be too young and mobile and in an exciting point in their lives where it would be difficult to lug around an acoustic piano wherever they may end up. I get it. I've been there. Sometimes we have to make certain sacrifices, but doesn't mean we need to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the obvious. I couldn't say I ever clamored to own an acoustic grand because I always found one somewhere. Before I owned one I would have been in school and I always had access to one in school for the arta or once I graduated I had access at the conservatories I attended. Such great memories those old beat-up pianos especially in my undergraduate years decades ago. Swooned quite the young ladies back then with my playing. Hee hee.

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Well as long as it's understood I don't mind if someone doesn't agree with it. In fact I would rather they convince me of their argument because I feel I can learn something from it. But using silly arguments I feel are waste of my time. Arguing an opinion must be extreme because of the length of a post is not really solid argument stand on . The current debate IS subjective, but sometimes some things just commonly accepted. It's like me saying, "most people like mild and sunny days" and someone else is trying to argue that "most people like rainy and cloudy days". I'm sure some people like rainy and cloudy days but as a whole I think it would be hard to defend that most like it that way. You get it?

I guess you could say I AM concerned about the state of the acoustic piano today and that's why I've been so vehemently arguing for what they still have to offer and why they are absolutely relevant. Most of you who may be reading posts might be asking why is he so obsessed about this issue. Well I've been reading the papers. Reading these forums. Talking to dealers. Watching going on in my parts of town and around country. I'm worried no one is buying acoustic pianos anymore. Just a few months I got my Shigeru SK2 at basically dealer invoice because the only Shigeru dealer in Florida (who also was a Kawai dealer) closed shop. This is happening all around the country. But I am aware that just as many people are taking piano lessons as they have in the past. The school I go to is always booked.

Maybe I'm wrong. I guess some dealers are out there they can chime in, but seems to be that the piano industry is somewhat in trouble and I think it is partly because of the digital boom. Some say that the perception that the used piano market is killing the new piano market is overstated. There are a lot of very old pianos on the market but apparently no one is buying them. But in my opinion based upon what I read here and in some advertisements it is from a misrepresentation of what digitals are that so many of them may be outselling the acoustics. Though they might even argue that it is digital sales that is keeping them afloat but in the long term I think this will eventually end up destroying the industry and that would be sad for the art. Maybe it's a natural occurrence - a correction of sorts where only the strong survive. I don't know.

Rolex! You are a legend! All it concerns me is my original Q, you took the words out of my mouth! Whilst I understand one feels warmer, mellower, its more about how it sounds to me. I was really after some technical Questions and they are built etc. I'm clearly after an acoustic pianos not digital. Thanks so much for clarifying this ;-)

We answered your question pages ago. The answer is NO. Haven't you been paying attention!

You're question has evolved past the amoeba stage, soon we will be on the topic of the meaning of life. Just give it time.

What I have noticed is that all threads including in the digital forum are morphing in the same direction that acoustics are just better than digitals. It's a conspiracy started by yours truly.