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What about an ideal Digital Piano?
#2890981 09/16/19 01:29 PM
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Hello, this is my first post here.
I played piano for 10 years long time ago smile
Now I own a CA97. Tested pianoteq with headphone(+dac +headphone ampli) vs internal speaker sound or sampled sound with headphone.
Wow...PTQ is the winner by far.
Now a single keynote is annoying me: I need more power to press..rrr..I have to fix it...
I know you guys have a lot experience with N1X, NV10, midi DIY, Acoustic Grand playing, etc.

I was thinking about writing specification on a future DP.
Main goal is "approaching" acoustic piano experience or getting something "very" playable (classical music) since Dp can be instrument per se.
At least something superior (subjective and objective) than an upright yamaha U3 as far as sound and playability is concerned.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That is my first proposal for such a DP :

1/ UC under linux pianoteq V6+
2/ UC USB midi in
3/ UC USB out

4/ splitter USB brand? or DIY
5/ DAC (6 max)
or
6/ ampli power, brand?
7/ ampli linux driver
8/ ampli USB in
9/ ampli analog audio out 6 max channels

10/ speaker (6 max) brand?
11/ speaker support for orientation (6 max) DIY

12/ transducer for kb vibration DIY

13/ cabinet DIY

14/ pc screen (in place of the score support)
15/ mouse

16/ keyboard (renner or AG equivalent) + midi USB out system DIY
or
17/ best keyboard w USB midi integrated

18/ pedal system

19/ power supplies

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMHO VST is better than sampled. And VST is the future.
Your best chosen harware does'nt change and you enjoy improving with upcoming new VST versions
The best DPs dont improve. You have to buy next version to do so...GAS.
The actual thing is even the best DP (including best hybrid) does'nt "fit" well with pianoteq.
For instance internal sound system for these DPs doesn't have separate voices drivers.
These DP can be used with pianoteq but only with external speakers and audio interface.
I know you can use DP's line in, but you do it as a stereo input loosing PTQ tuning. And this is a pity.

Problematic is the following: imagine an average room,
can we choose best devices, can we implement it all and make tests with professional piano players to achieve our main goal,
or it is just not doable?

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2890994 09/16/19 02:08 PM
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It may be "doable", but there are two important questions:

. . . If you built it, could you sell a thousand of them, and make a profit?

If not, it won't become a commercial product.


. . . If you built _one_ for yourself, could you afford the required engineering work?

If not, you'll never have one, even as a "one-off" demonstration of what's possible.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2890996 09/16/19 02:22 PM
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More than engineering it is about choosing the right devices. The right keyboard the right ampli and speakers etc. Then tune ptq with the help of pros for getting the right position of the actual speakers and virtual microphones etc.

midi system was almost done by a forum impresive guy!!

Doable of course it is. But will this DP will overcome the Yamaha U3? I mean if you have 10 professional pianists will they choose the DP instead of the U3?

Last edited by magnifico; 09/16/19 02:29 PM.
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2890997 09/16/19 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by magnifico
But will this DP will overcome the Yamaha U3? I mean if you have 10 professional pianists will they choose the DP instead of the U3?

Doubtful.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891001 09/16/19 02:35 PM
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thx for your opinion.
So an N1X with pianoteg and very good sound system (cambridge, devialet or whatever) with 6 powerfull speakers and monitors, with some transducers and tuning by pros will not overcome an U3?

Last edited by magnifico; 09/16/19 02:45 PM.
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891003 09/16/19 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by magnifico
thx for your opinion.
So an N1X with pianoteg and very good sound system (cambridge, devialet or whatever) with 6 powerfull speakers and monitors, with some transducers and tuning by pros will not overcom an U3?

I have an N1X, pianoteq, and an audiophile audio system well into 5 figures. It's not all perfectly configured since I don't use my audio system for my piano (I'm 95% a headphone user and the other 5% just use the built-in speakers in the N1X) but even if I hooked up everything perfectly, I doubt it would satisfy those who are not satisfied by the timbre of PTQ.

Personally, I like PTQ myself. Just saying there are critics on this forum who would not be satisfied even on my audio system since my audio system will not change the timbre of the notes from PTQ. Now if you replace PTQ with the top sampled VST, like VSL, I don't know. That might work.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891004 09/16/19 02:55 PM
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thx for your arguments.
So if you give the best headphone or yor system to 10 pro pianists and let them play and tune PTQ for one month you think the majority of them will still prefer an U3 sound?

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891008 09/16/19 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by magnifico
thx for your arguments.
So if you give the best headphone or yor system to 10 pro pianists and let them play and tune PTQ for one month you think the majority of them will still prefer an U3 sound?

It's a little difficult for me to answer this since, as I said, I do like PTQ and have no problem with the timbre, but I don't think the timbre issue can be solved by tuning. Not a PTQ tuning expert though and I would love to be proven wrong as if there are some things that are better tuned, I'd love to know how to tune them. BTW, I have PTQ Standard, not PTQ Pro, so there may be some tuning things in PTQ Pro that I'm not aware of. There are some other things I might do however to try to add some realism to PTQ. One is go with a high-end reverb convolution engine like East-West Spaces II instead of the built-in one in PTQ. That won't fix timbre either however, but I think it would sound nicer and more realistic.

Right now, I am conducting a little experiment. I'm in the process of having a custom PC-builder build me a completely overpowered DAW workstation with the latest AMD Ryzen 3950X sixteen core processor (waiting for it to be released on 30 Sep) very fast SSDs, and I'll try to run VSL Synchron Concert D with 10 microphones "live" (that is, "realtime", not rendered). This might actually be enough horsepower to be able to do it. However the DAW workstation is costing me over $8K by itself, so it's not really a commercially feasible solution. And even then, it's possible this might not work - I've been PM'ing with another PW member about this config, and I might need to go to a liquid cooled OC rig to be able to run VSL Synchron Concert D with 10 microphones in realtime. I don't know if anyone has tried to run VSL Synchron Concert D with 10 microphones in realtime before.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891014 09/16/19 03:14 PM
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They don't even need to be pro pianists. Just major students in piano performance. All of them will choose the acoustic over any digital

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891019 09/16/19 03:25 PM
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So, we basically need an 8K computer and -fingers crossed- it might run VSL D at full throttle (10 mics, etc.)
That there is the main problem with this software; the requirements are huge, and I wonder if the end would justify the means.
Keep in mind that this is one of the most expensive sampled pianos out there, but is it really the best -as claimed by a few- or are we simply being conditioned to believe this because of its mammoth size?

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891022 09/16/19 03:36 PM
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My god an 8K DAW...
I liked the steingraeber s timbre so much in PTQ and thought and experienced so nice modeling system under my thingers compared to the sampled in the CA97...

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891027 09/16/19 03:41 PM
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So Tyrone Slothrop if you can play loud all the time do you choose personaly the U3 over your DP?

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891028 09/16/19 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by magnifico
IMHO VST is better than sampled.


Most VSTs are sampled.

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891029 09/16/19 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by magnifico
So Tyrone Slothrop if you can play loud all the time do you choose personaly the U3 over your DP?

I am too junior a pianist to be able to intelligently choose one thing over another. Better you ask the students in piano performance, rather than me!


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
Pete14 #2891038 09/16/19 04:01 PM
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Incorrect. You do not need a monumental computer to run it.
The maker's stated requirements call for a run-of-the-mill desktop or laptop with SSD.
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, we basically need an 8K computer and -fingers crossed- it might run VSL D at full throttle (10 mics, etc.)
In fact the CPU requirements are paltry. All it needs is a decent SSD ... which is nearly universal these days.
All the other requirements are quite ordinary.
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Package/Concert_D#!System_Requirements

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
MacMacMac #2891040 09/16/19 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Incorrect. You do not need a monumental computer to run it.
The maker's stated requirements call for a run-of-the-mill desktop or laptop with SSD.
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, we basically need an 8K computer and -fingers crossed- it might run VSL D at full throttle (10 mics, etc.)
In fact the CPU requirements are paltry. All it needs is a decent SSD ... which is nearly universal these days.
All the other requirements are quite ordinary.
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Package/Concert_D#!System_Requirements

That's correct, VSL can run on more modest hardware. I was talking about a very specific, rare and challenging configuration - running with 10 microphones. That is normally done only when rendered, and it is unclear that configuration has ever been run before realtime.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891041 09/16/19 04:09 PM
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Quote

IMHO VST is better than sampled.

Not everyone will agree with that. It will depend on the size of the sample and whether there is looping etc. And it will also depend on the pianist. Being able to control voicing when one plays will be more important to some pianists than just doing an A/B comparison of which has the most pleasing sound when a note is played.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
Sweelinck #2891043 09/16/19 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote

IMHO VST is better than sampled.

Not everyone will agree with that. It will depend on the size of the sample and whether there is looping etc. And it will also depend on the pianist. Being able to control voicing when one plays will be more important to some pianists than just doing an A/B comparison of which has the most pleasing sound when a note is played.

I have read many comments from more experienced pianists praising the responsiveness of PTQ. One conservatory-trained PW member mentioned that while PTQ might not sound the best or sound as good as the best sampled VSTs, that it offers responsiveness that is on par with lesser acoustical grand pianos. (That particular member also suggested using a 3rd party reverb convolution engine with PTQ.)


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
magnifico #2891045 09/16/19 04:15 PM
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I don’t get it. Why should running ten -available- microphones be a rare and challenging configuration?
If there are 20 mics available, and I want to run them all in real time, I should be able to run them all without the need for an 8K computer. If this is not the case then the ‘paltry’ requirements are only good for a few paltry microphones.

Re: What about an ideal Digital Piano?
Pete14 #2891046 09/16/19 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I don’t get it. Why should running ten -available- microphones be a rare and challenging configuration?

It's actually a bit like ray-tracing with multiple light sources. smile Very compute intensive. Ask Pixar!


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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