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Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Nahum] #2890845
09/16/19 05:24 AM
09/16/19 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Jazz isn't what is written, but what sounds.


Yes.

Check out these 2 recordings - same notes but one is jazz and the other is a facsimile of jazz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HymD-yIN_DA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMwj-0tY-OA

Jazz only happens once in real time

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Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890847
09/16/19 05:42 AM
09/16/19 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by beeboss
I hope she played with the right fingering. smile

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890899
09/16/19 09:13 AM
09/16/19 09:13 AM
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Posts: 373
Kent, UK
Simon_b Offline
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Hi

Joanna MacGregor is a great Pianist. I have many recordings by her.
She would have used the right fingering.

Though I understand the irony of your comment Nahum.

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890916
09/16/19 10:02 AM
09/16/19 10:02 AM
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Hi, Manne janne! Well, I prefer to call this "Jazzoid" -- meaning that there is a wealth of beautifully transcribed solo piano pieces performed by various Jazz artists, but with the improvisational material written out. I love playing these, but because I haven't learned how to improvise; the best I can do is give the impression of Jazz "feel" throughout. This is a genre to which the Russian Nikolai Kapustin has devoted his entire career, and I'm delighted to see that Schott is now working with him to publish many of his works -- just as an example. But the best of these transcriptions provide music I regard a piano music of a very high order, and I don't apologize for their not being "real Jazz" -- that's true, to be sure, but it takes a good deal of technical moxie to bring them off convincingly.

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890919
09/16/19 10:09 AM
09/16/19 10:09 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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It seems like there is an distinction between the "jazz tradition" involving improvisation and the use of certain chords/rhythms/techniques, and jazz music itself. Jazz music can be created through the jazz tradition or not. A given performance of a piece of music could still be considered "jazz" even if no improvisation was done during that particular performance.

Is that correct?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

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Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Simon_b] #2890930
09/16/19 10:39 AM
09/16/19 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi

Joanna MacGregor is a great Pianist. I have many recordings by her.
She would have used the right fingering.

Though I understand the irony of your comment Nahum.

Cheers


Remember the instructor from “Whiplash?” I have not met such teachers; but such "colleagues" in the ensemble - definitely yes ! I ate from them a lot of s ...: "What kind of polka are you playing? Where are you in a hurry? Swing and rhythm are already gone!" No, nobody punched me, it didn’t come to that; but the words hurt; and the post-injury remained for many years (but I forgot about it for a long time). However, I am not offended; venomous remarks determined the proportions of really important and not so important things. My students never hear this from me; but if someone decides to be defined as a pro? Deal with it! , or you have to find your real place!

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2890931
09/16/19 10:43 AM
09/16/19 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
A given performance of a piece of music could still be considered "jazz" even if no improvisation was done during that particular performance.

Is that correct?


There are no universal definitions that all jazz musicians (or other people) agree upon, so you are free to consider whatever you want as being jazz. There are things that are obviously not jazz but the dividing line between 'jazz' and 'jazzy' is tenuous, imo.

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890934
09/16/19 10:48 AM
09/16/19 10:48 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
. A given performance of a piece of music could still be considered "jazz" even if no improvisation was done during that particular performance.

Is that correct?
Yes it can be; if the performance carries the spirit of jazz. Learn from Satchmo (I did this) - he not only plays jazz, he speaks jazz, his facial expressions is jazz, his body language is jazz; it's just fantastic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWNxcOiU3rU

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890988
09/16/19 01:58 PM
09/16/19 01:58 PM
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Kent, UK
Simon_b Offline
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Hi Nahum

I haven't seen Whiplash, though I want to, so I don't understand your reply.
I meant no offence, and was merely pointing out that lady in question is a great Pianist (look her up), regardless of whether she can or cannot interpret a Monk piece/improvisation. I thought her performance was fine.

As I said the irony is that she would have used the correct fingering, where as Monk may well not have.

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Simon_b] #2891063
09/16/19 05:03 PM
09/16/19 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Simon_b
I thought her performance was fine.




Better than fine imo, but it is just very strange to hear Monk played note for note by a top classical player.
Everything about the music is changed except the actual notes. The musical meaning is completely different.

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2891074
09/16/19 05:23 PM
09/16/19 05:23 PM
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Tim Adrianson Offline
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For me, Monk "won" that one, by a mile -- MacGregor is note-perfect, and really "rhythm perfect as well" -- but it's just too sanitized. Give me some dirt in the mix!

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2892880
09/22/19 12:17 AM
09/22/19 12:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
Toronto, ON
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jazzpig Offline
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Bill Charlap Trio doing Cool from West Side Story.
It was originally jazzy but this a piano cover of the orchestral version.
One of my favorite pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ei57oi7xk

Last edited by jazzpig; 09/22/19 12:19 AM.
Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2892904
09/22/19 03:17 AM
09/22/19 03:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 373
Kent, UK
Simon_b Offline
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I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-written scores, but it's brilliant!

Thanks jazzpig.

Cheers

Simon


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Simon_b] #2893189
09/22/19 06:41 PM
09/22/19 06:41 PM
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Toronto, ON
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Originally Posted by Simon_b
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-written scores, but it's brilliant!

Thanks jazzpig.

Cheers

Simon

Then I misunderstood what a pre-written score is, my apologies.
Explanation would be appreciated.

jp

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2893281
09/23/19 03:12 AM
09/23/19 03:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 373
Kent, UK
Simon_b Offline
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Hi jp

This thread is about whether Jazz can be legitimately be call Jazz if it is played from a written score.
Now I reread your original post I think I see the way you were thinking.
West Side Story was/is a written out score and Bill Charlap's performance is an interpretation of that.

However I think the OP meant that the artist playing (i.e. in this case Bill Charlap) would be playing directly from that score.
And I doubt very much that was the case.

However I could be wrong.
Either way I'm glad you posted it as I love West Side Story and Bill Charlap's version of "Cool" is err cool!!

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Simon_b] #2893569
09/23/19 11:59 PM
09/23/19 11:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
Toronto, ON
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jazzpig Offline
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Toronto, ON
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi jp

This thread is about whether Jazz can be legitimately be call Jazz if it is played from a written score.
Now I reread your original post I think I see the way you were thinking.
West Side Story was/is a written out score and Bill Charlap's performance is an interpretation of that.

However I think the OP meant that the artist playing (i.e. in this case Bill Charlap) would be playing directly from that score.
And I doubt very much that was the case.

However I could be wrong.
Either way I'm glad you posted it as I love West Side Story and Bill Charlap's version of "Cool" is err cool!!

Cheers

Got it.
Thanks.

jp

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: jazzpig] #2893965
09/25/19 07:17 AM
09/25/19 07:17 AM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzpig
Originally Posted by Simon_b
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-written scores, but it's brilliant!

Thanks jazzpig.

Cheers

Simon

Then I misunderstood what a pre-written score is, my apologies.
Explanation would be appreciated.

jp


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Pre-written scores [Re: dmd] #2894092
09/25/19 01:36 PM
09/25/19 01:36 PM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by dmd


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Personally, I understand the reason for the term "pre-written." Indeed, for classical music, it really makes no sense to call it “pre-written”, since all its notes are written by the composer, and the role of the performer is to interpret them. However, in jazz the situation is different: part of the music is created by the composer, another part - by the performer himself through improvisation. Improvisation is an indispensable part of jazz - unlike classical music. The execution of a pre-written jazz score is in a kind of middle position between classical and jazz; which also applies to a fragment of improvisation, which represents a fixed transcription of improvisation. "Fixed transcription of improvisation " is a classic approach that contradicts the very meaning of improvisation. Thus, expression “pre-written” reflects this contradiction.

Re: Pre-written scores [Re: Nahum] #2894129
09/25/19 04:09 PM
09/25/19 04:09 PM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dmd


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Personally, I understand the reason for the term "pre-written." Indeed, for classical music, it really makes no sense to call it “pre-written”, since all its notes are written by the composer, and the role of the performer is to interpret them. However, in jazz the situation is different: part of the music is created by the composer, another part - by the performer himself through improvisation. Improvisation is an indispensable part of jazz - unlike classical music. The execution of a pre-written jazz score is in a kind of middle position between classical and jazz; which also applies to a fragment of improvisation, which represents a fixed transcription of improvisation. "Fixed transcription of improvisation " is a classic approach that contradicts the very meaning of improvisation. Thus, expression “pre-written” reflects this contradiction.


So …. you are suggesting that the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from scores ?

would be different than the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from pre-written scores ?


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Pre-written scores [Re: dmd] #2894287
09/26/19 02:32 AM
09/26/19 02:32 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Israel
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dmd


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Personally, I understand the reason for the term "pre-written." Indeed, for classical music, it really makes no sense to call it “pre-written”, since all its notes are written by the composer, and the role of the performer is to interpret them. However, in jazz the situation is different: part of the music is created by the composer, another part - by the performer himself through improvisation. Improvisation is an indispensable part of jazz - unlike classical music. The execution of a pre-written jazz score is in a kind of middle position between classical and jazz; which also applies to a fragment of improvisation, which represents a fixed transcription of improvisation. "Fixed transcription of improvisation " is a classic approach that contradicts the very meaning of improvisation. Thus, expression “pre-written” reflects this contradiction.


So …. you are suggesting that the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from scores ?

would be different than the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from pre-written scores ?


IMO we need to define concepts: score and notes are the same?

Last edited by Nahum; 09/26/19 02:32 AM.
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