2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
34 members (Freddo, Harpuia, DaKillaGuineaPig, A. Lucato, dbudde, Beowulf, BachToTheFuture, 9 invisible), 334 guests, and 427 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Pre-written scores
Nahum #2890845 09/16/19 05:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,452
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,452
Originally Posted by Nahum
Jazz isn't what is written, but what sounds.


Yes.

Check out these 2 recordings - same notes but one is jazz and the other is a facsimile of jazz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HymD-yIN_DA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMwj-0tY-OA

Jazz only happens once in real time

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890847 09/16/19 05:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
Originally Posted by beeboss
I hope she played with the right fingering. smile

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890899 09/16/19 09:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Hi

Joanna MacGregor is a great Pianist. I have many recordings by her.
She would have used the right fingering.

Though I understand the irony of your comment Nahum.

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73
Yanagisawa AW10 (alto Sax)


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890916 09/16/19 10:02 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,222
T
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,222
Hi, Manne janne! Well, I prefer to call this "Jazzoid" -- meaning that there is a wealth of beautifully transcribed solo piano pieces performed by various Jazz artists, but with the improvisational material written out. I love playing these, but because I haven't learned how to improvise; the best I can do is give the impression of Jazz "feel" throughout. This is a genre to which the Russian Nikolai Kapustin has devoted his entire career, and I'm delighted to see that Schott is now working with him to publish many of his works -- just as an example. But the best of these transcriptions provide music I regard a piano music of a very high order, and I don't apologize for their not being "real Jazz" -- that's true, to be sure, but it takes a good deal of technical moxie to bring them off convincingly.

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890919 09/16/19 10:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
It seems like there is an distinction between the "jazz tradition" involving improvisation and the use of certain chords/rhythms/techniques, and jazz music itself. Jazz music can be created through the jazz tradition or not. A given performance of a piece of music could still be considered "jazz" even if no improvisation was done during that particular performance.

Is that correct?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2890930 09/16/19 10:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi

Joanna MacGregor is a great Pianist. I have many recordings by her.
She would have used the right fingering.

Though I understand the irony of your comment Nahum.

Cheers


Remember the instructor from “Whiplash?” I have not met such teachers; but such "colleagues" in the ensemble - definitely yes ! I ate from them a lot of s ...: "What kind of polka are you playing? Where are you in a hurry? Swing and rhythm are already gone!" No, nobody punched me, it didn’t come to that; but the words hurt; and the post-injury remained for many years (but I forgot about it for a long time). However, I am not offended; venomous remarks determined the proportions of really important and not so important things. My students never hear this from me; but if someone decides to be defined as a pro? Deal with it! , or you have to find your real place!

Re: Pre-written scores
Tyrone Slothrop #2890931 09/16/19 10:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,452
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,452
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
A given performance of a piece of music could still be considered "jazz" even if no improvisation was done during that particular performance.

Is that correct?


There are no universal definitions that all jazz musicians (or other people) agree upon, so you are free to consider whatever you want as being jazz. There are things that are obviously not jazz but the dividing line between 'jazz' and 'jazzy' is tenuous, imo.

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890934 09/16/19 10:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
. A given performance of a piece of music could still be considered "jazz" even if no improvisation was done during that particular performance.

Is that correct?
Yes it can be; if the performance carries the spirit of jazz. Learn from Satchmo (I did this) - he not only plays jazz, he speaks jazz, his facial expressions is jazz, his body language is jazz; it's just fantastic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWNxcOiU3rU

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890988 09/16/19 01:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Hi Nahum

I haven't seen Whiplash, though I want to, so I don't understand your reply.
I meant no offence, and was merely pointing out that lady in question is a great Pianist (look her up), regardless of whether she can or cannot interpret a Monk piece/improvisation. I thought her performance was fine.

As I said the irony is that she would have used the correct fingering, where as Monk may well not have.

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73
Yanagisawa AW10 (alto Sax)


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2891063 09/16/19 05:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,452
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,452
Originally Posted by Simon_b
I thought her performance was fine.




Better than fine imo, but it is just very strange to hear Monk played note for note by a top classical player.
Everything about the music is changed except the actual notes. The musical meaning is completely different.

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2891074 09/16/19 05:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,222
T
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,222
For me, Monk "won" that one, by a mile -- MacGregor is note-perfect, and really "rhythm perfect as well" -- but it's just too sanitized. Give me some dirt in the mix!

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2892880 09/22/19 12:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
Bill Charlap Trio doing Cool from West Side Story.
It was originally jazzy but this a piano cover of the orchestral version.
One of my favorite pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ei57oi7xk

Last edited by jazzpig; 09/22/19 12:19 AM.
Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2892904 09/22/19 03:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-written scores, but it's brilliant!

Thanks jazzpig.

Cheers

Simon


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73
Yanagisawa AW10 (alto Sax)


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2893189 09/22/19 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by Simon_b
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-written scores, but it's brilliant!

Thanks jazzpig.

Cheers

Simon

Then I misunderstood what a pre-written score is, my apologies.
Explanation would be appreciated.

jp

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2893281 09/23/19 03:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 483
Hi jp

This thread is about whether Jazz can be legitimately be call Jazz if it is played from a written score.
Now I reread your original post I think I see the way you were thinking.
West Side Story was/is a written out score and Bill Charlap's performance is an interpretation of that.

However I think the OP meant that the artist playing (i.e. in this case Bill Charlap) would be playing directly from that score.
And I doubt very much that was the case.

However I could be wrong.
Either way I'm glad you posted it as I love West Side Story and Bill Charlap's version of "Cool" is err cool!!

Cheers


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Vox Continental 73
Yanagisawa AW10 (alto Sax)


Play what you enjoy listening to, listen to what you enjoy playing!




Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2893569 09/23/19 11:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi jp

This thread is about whether Jazz can be legitimately be call Jazz if it is played from a written score.
Now I reread your original post I think I see the way you were thinking.
West Side Story was/is a written out score and Bill Charlap's performance is an interpretation of that.

However I think the OP meant that the artist playing (i.e. in this case Bill Charlap) would be playing directly from that score.
And I doubt very much that was the case.

However I could be wrong.
Either way I'm glad you posted it as I love West Side Story and Bill Charlap's version of "Cool" is err cool!!

Cheers

Got it.
Thanks.

jp

Re: Pre-written scores
jazzpig #2893965 09/25/19 07:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,203
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,203
Originally Posted by jazzpig
Originally Posted by Simon_b
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-written scores, but it's brilliant!

Thanks jazzpig.

Cheers

Simon

Then I misunderstood what a pre-written score is, my apologies.
Explanation would be appreciated.

jp


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pre-written scores
dmd #2894092 09/25/19 01:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
Originally Posted by dmd


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Personally, I understand the reason for the term "pre-written." Indeed, for classical music, it really makes no sense to call it “pre-written”, since all its notes are written by the composer, and the role of the performer is to interpret them. However, in jazz the situation is different: part of the music is created by the composer, another part - by the performer himself through improvisation. Improvisation is an indispensable part of jazz - unlike classical music. The execution of a pre-written jazz score is in a kind of middle position between classical and jazz; which also applies to a fragment of improvisation, which represents a fixed transcription of improvisation. "Fixed transcription of improvisation " is a classic approach that contradicts the very meaning of improvisation. Thus, expression “pre-written” reflects this contradiction.

Re: Pre-written scores
Nahum #2894129 09/25/19 04:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,203
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,203
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dmd


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Personally, I understand the reason for the term "pre-written." Indeed, for classical music, it really makes no sense to call it “pre-written”, since all its notes are written by the composer, and the role of the performer is to interpret them. However, in jazz the situation is different: part of the music is created by the composer, another part - by the performer himself through improvisation. Improvisation is an indispensable part of jazz - unlike classical music. The execution of a pre-written jazz score is in a kind of middle position between classical and jazz; which also applies to a fragment of improvisation, which represents a fixed transcription of improvisation. "Fixed transcription of improvisation " is a classic approach that contradicts the very meaning of improvisation. Thus, expression “pre-written” reflects this contradiction.


So …. you are suggesting that the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from scores ?

would be different than the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from pre-written scores ?


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pre-written scores
dmd #2894287 09/26/19 02:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
N
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,538
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dmd


Personally, I can understand a bit of confusion over the term PRE-WRITTEN SCORE.

A score is always written and not sure what the PRE refers to.

We know it was written prior to playing from it.

So …. the term SCORE would have been enough. No need for WRITTEN or PRE.


Personally, I understand the reason for the term "pre-written." Indeed, for classical music, it really makes no sense to call it “pre-written”, since all its notes are written by the composer, and the role of the performer is to interpret them. However, in jazz the situation is different: part of the music is created by the composer, another part - by the performer himself through improvisation. Improvisation is an indispensable part of jazz - unlike classical music. The execution of a pre-written jazz score is in a kind of middle position between classical and jazz; which also applies to a fragment of improvisation, which represents a fixed transcription of improvisation. "Fixed transcription of improvisation " is a classic approach that contradicts the very meaning of improvisation. Thus, expression “pre-written” reflects this contradiction.


So …. you are suggesting that the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from scores ?

would be different than the answer to this question ….

Can one play jazz from pre-written scores ?


IMO we need to define concepts: score and notes are the same?

Last edited by Nahum; 09/26/19 02:32 AM.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casio Privia clicking keys repair success story!
by Siberialina - 08/09/20 09:05 PM
Newer T121 to old U3 -both Yamaha
by DYC - 08/09/20 08:41 PM
Recordings messed up...
by mwf - 08/09/20 07:40 PM
FP30 keyboard water-damaged
by kostek525 - 08/09/20 06:53 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,819
Posts2,990,091
Members98,084
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4