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How Many Digitals Get This Correct #2890793
09/16/19 12:17 AM
09/16/19 12:17 AM
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Jonky Ponky Offline OP
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On my keyboard and I think all others I've tried when I hit a loud note with the pedal down followed by a soft hit of the same note - both the loud and soft note are sounding at the same time. On a real piano the striking of the soft note would deaden the sound of the loud note.
Is this standard for digitals or do some cancel out the first sounded note?
I dont necessarily see this as a problem because its kind of a nice effect to have both sounding with the type of music (Pop/Rock/Ballads) that I play but I would imagine in some classical pieces this would be undesireable.

Last edited by Jonky Ponky; 09/16/19 12:18 AM.
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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890803
09/16/19 01:00 AM
09/16/19 01:00 AM
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My acoustic works the same as your keyboard. smile

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890815
09/16/19 02:18 AM
09/16/19 02:18 AM
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Jonky Ponky Offline OP
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Let me restate what I mean. The second note should cause the loud sound to diminish to some extent and obviously only one sound (perhaps a combination of the loud and soft) should be heard - not two distinct notes. At least that's what I think should happen. I was wondering if any high-end digitals do this.

Last edited by Jonky Ponky; 09/16/19 02:19 AM.
Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890835
09/16/19 04:39 AM
09/16/19 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
At least that's what I think should happen.


Might be a false assumption.

Even the dampers need some time in contact with the string to silence it. The hammer strike is really fast and the hammer is in contact with the string for a fraction of a second. So it's very different from e.g. a guitarist touching a guitar string to silence it.

So, it makes sense that it doesn't silence the string, much anyway. But instead it adds a new impulse of energy to it. Probably in reality it's a mixture of both, but I'm not good at "physicsing".

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: clothearednincompo] #2890836
09/16/19 04:43 AM
09/16/19 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
At least that's what I think should happen.
The hammer strike is really fast and the hammer is in contact with the string for a fraction of a second.

Yes, the piano is a percussion instrument. Does hitting a drum head a second time silence it?


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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890838
09/16/19 04:52 AM
09/16/19 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
On a real piano the striking of the soft note would deaden the sound of the loud note.


Only in half the cases; it depends on whether the second hammer strike is in phase with the already vibrating string, or whether it is in counter phase. Half the time it would go the one way, half the time the other. But at any rate, the hammers are designed relatively hard, so that they generate sound when hitting the strings. The dampers, on the other hand, are designed soft, so as to dampen the sound. Although there would theoretically be some dampening effect of the second hammer strike, in reality the effect will probably always be to increase the sound.


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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: clothearednincompo] #2890842
09/16/19 05:01 AM
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And the sounds from both "hits" are resonating in the other strings, as the pedal is down.

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890844
09/16/19 05:23 AM
09/16/19 05:23 AM
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I think this is a good opportunity for an experimental approach. Surely there are enough people with acoustics on this forum to test out the behaviour.

We might even find an older piano with hardened hammers that hasn't been recently voiced has a different behaviour to one with new hammers or recently voiced hammers.


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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890851
09/16/19 05:54 AM
09/16/19 05:54 AM
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There are 2 approaches:

Let S1 be the first strike.
Let S2 be the second strike of the same note (with pedal depressed).

1) Output = S1 + S2. In this case the piano engine plays both the notes. I think all the piano VST and all sample-based digital piano engines do this. It's the easiest approach. This of course will reduce the number of max notes you can play.

2) The engine uses S2 as an impulse to modify S1. So only one note plays (the modified S1) with a reset envelope. Polyphony is not affected. Roland modeled engines do that (so they claim to have unlimited polyphony).

Both the approaches sound good for the listener. I'm not into Physics, so I don't know which of the two is more realistic. What I can say is that (2) is better for polyphony (but you cannot do that with a fully sampled engine).

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890859
09/16/19 06:38 AM
09/16/19 06:38 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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It's the first time I hear that with a damper pedal on and re-striking a key with lower velocity should somehow "cancel" (?) the previously louder note. I don't even see how that might happen. At the strike point the hammer is detached from the key and even if it may exhibit some dampening properties due to phases, it's still too light and free to rebound from the string vibration as to not dampen it. It would have dampened it if for some reason it was held at the string as is the case with the piano dampers. But in this case it's moving and will rebound with almost no energy lost. As a matter of fact, the sound can increase because it might be adding energy to the already vibrating string, depending on the phase. But in any case, the general behavior should rather be to have the already louder sustain prevail over the lighter strike.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/16/19 06:39 AM.

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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: CyberGene] #2890887
09/16/19 08:11 AM
09/16/19 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
It would have dampened it if for some reason it was held at the string as is the case with the piano dampers.


Like if somebody took a Casio Grand Hybrid action and put it inside a real grand. wink

Though I guess then the piano would work like a clavichord and the sound would cut already when you release the first note.

So, it's a Casio Clavichord Hybrid action.

And as for the original topic: even old and low end digital pianos get it right.

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: clothearednincompo] #2890889
09/16/19 08:26 AM
09/16/19 08:26 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by CyberGene
It would have dampened it if for some reason it was held at the string as is the case with the piano dampers.


Like if somebody took a Casio Grand Hybrid action and put it inside a real grand. wink

Though I guess then the piano would work like a clavichord and the sound would cut already when you release the first note.

So, it's a Casio Clavichord Hybrid action.

And as for the original topic: even old and low end digital pianos get it right.

LOL, I thought exactly the same but decided not to mention it, so that we don't turn this thread into yet another dead horse beating wink (Great minds think alike laugh )


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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890895
09/16/19 08:55 AM
09/16/19 08:55 AM
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From the start I was puzzled by "both the loud and soft note are sounding at the same time".
If it's the same note ... how can there be two of them, with one loud and one soft.
It's just one note.

Perhaps the second strike has altered the remains of the already sounding first strike.
But in the end there can be only one tone playing.
It's just one note.

So, as you say ...
[Linked Image]

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: MacMacMac] #2890910
09/16/19 09:40 AM
09/16/19 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
From the start I was puzzled by "both the loud and soft note are sounding at the same time".
If it's the same note ... how can there be two of them, with one loud and one soft.
It's just one note.

Perhaps the second strike has altered the remains of the already sounding first strike.
But in the end there can be only one tone playing.
It's just one note.

So, as you say ...
[Linked Image]

Um.... beating a dead cow?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890912
09/16/19 09:44 AM
09/16/19 09:44 AM
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toddy Online content
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Except for the fact that the usual system used by sample DPs and VSTs doesn't play one note - as explained above, it triggers a second voice which possibly might be out of phase with the first, making a richness of tone which would be impossible on an acoustic piano. Therefore the modelled system - or a sample based one using an algorithm which modifies the first tone is more authentic.

But I agree in so far as it hardly matters anyway, so long as glaring inconsistencies don't emerge.


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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2890987
09/16/19 01:56 PM
09/16/19 01:56 PM
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Charles Cohen Offline
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FWIW --

There's a video by Chilly Gonzalez that's relevant, but I can't find it.

He begins a piece with a rumble (I don't know a better word) in the low bass -- many repeated soft keystrokes, which build up sound slowly. My sense is that he keeps the dampers off the strings -- that the keys are always slightly depressed. (I think a grand piano allows that; I don't know if an upright does.)

It's roughly equivalent to a soft roll on a bass drum.

My PX-350 triple-sensor keyboard can produce several "Note On" messages, for a single key, without a "Note Off" message. I'm not sure if all DP keyboards can do that, or if it requires a 'triple-sensor" action.

The PX-350 sound generator is sampled, not modelled.

I can duplicate Chilly's "bass rumble" using Pianoteq, using my PX-350 MIDI output. I _can't_ duplicate it with my PX-350's built-in sounds.

So I'd be careful about broad statements claiming that "all DP's" or "all VST's" have a particular behavior, with that kind of (simulated) multiple-hammer-strike excitation.

I _suspect_ that it's easier to achieve with "modelled sound", rather than with "sampled sound", but I don't have enough evidence, or enough theory, to be confident.







Last edited by Charles Cohen; 09/16/19 02:02 PM.

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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2891005
09/16/19 03:02 PM
09/16/19 03:02 PM
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Triple sensors are quite common in digital pianos. I would say dual sensor is becoming the exception (Yamaha GHS keyboard typically).

One way to render it with sample is to leave the voice which render the first note active when adding an independent voice which render the second... then a third voice etc. When we get out of the available polyphony, we just have to cut the lowest voice (or the least recent... this behaviour is easier to program : we don’t need to compute the current power of each voice)

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/16/19 03:04 PM.

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Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Jonky Ponky] #2891007
09/16/19 03:05 PM
09/16/19 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonky Ponky
On my keyboard and I think all others I've tried when I hit a loud note with the pedal down followed by a soft hit of the same note - both the loud and soft note are sounding at the same time. On a real piano the striking of the soft note would deaden the sound of the loud note.

Not my experience. On a real grand, a quiet strike on the same key after a hard strike (with pedal down) does not diminish the effect of the original strike.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
My PX-350 triple-sensor keyboard can produce several "Note On" messages, for a single key, without a "Note Off" message. I'm not sure if all DP keyboards can do that, or if it requires a 'triple-sensor" action.

That's pretty much the definition of what the triple sensor lets you do.

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2891024
09/16/19 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Um.... beating a dead cow?


The creature in the animation has features of both a horse and a cow.

So, it's a hybrid.

A corse or a how.

And being a large animal you could say it's a Grand Hybrid.

And just like in the animation there are people who only touch a Grand Hybrid with a long stick!

laugh

The horse is dead! Long live the horse!

(We need a new dead horse to beat I suppose. This one is starting to stink...)

Re: How Many Digitals Get This Correct [Re: clothearednincompo] #2891060
09/16/19 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

The creature in the animation has features of both a horse and a cow.

So, it's a hybrid.

A corse or a how.



A how-to corse?


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