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Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890355 09/14/19 03:37 PM
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In case the OP is really into learning classical scores by ear, here's how a well-known blind virtuoso pianist does it:

Nobuyuki Tsujii learns new musical works strictly by ear. A 2009 Time article explains: "Certainly, being blind hasn't made it easy. Tsujii can use Braille music scores to learn new pieces, but this kind of translation is usually done by volunteers. Because demand is so low, the variety of scores available does not meet the needs of a professional performer, so Tsujii has devised his own method. A team of pianists records scores along with specific codes and instructions written by composers, which Tsujii listens to and practices until he learns and perfects each piece.".

Tsujii said in a 2011 interview, "I learn pieces by listening, but it doesn't mean I'm copying CDs or another person's interpretation. I ask my assistants to make a special cassette tape for me. They split the piece into small sections, such as several bars, and record it (one hand at a time). I call these tapes 'music sheets for ears.' It takes me a few days to complete a short piece, but it takes one month to complete a big sonata or concerto."



There - easy-peasy! thumb

Here's the result of just a little work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgPXOW5bpZk


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Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890492 09/15/19 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne

How do people leann the language by only repeating notes on a piece of paper?



A beginner might simply be repeating notes. But the more experienced player will be analyzing the score, decoding it, and in so doing will be seeing the bigger picture at a glance. Since we are visual creatures this makes sense, but that is not to say the ear doesn't have a part to play in all of this. If one can learn to audiate, or are blessed with perfect pitch, then as complimentary skills these would be invaluable.

Originally Posted by Manne janne

Maybe I am the weird guy who just don't learn musical languages by only repeating what is in a score.


No, everyone who has any interest in learning the musical language does not do so by simple repetition. Have a look at this thread here. This is a quite complex scrutiny of what many would regard as one of Chopin's easier pieces (not my opinion). Note one does not have to understand all of this to play the piece, but hopefully as you progress you might find this is the sort of language that helps give a deeper understanding.


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Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890535 09/15/19 04:43 AM
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I don't know about you but for me the best way to learn the piano is by focusing on the details (both technical and musical).
Many people can in fact take a simple piece and just learn it. They go through the fingerings and dynamics with the teacher. This is how many people learn a piece. I focus much more on what is going on in the music. I guess focusing on the details makes learning pieces a bit of a slower process (at least in the beginning) but
...in the end I learn much more about music and advance in my playing.
Are you saying that most teachers don't really teach music this way as this requieres more time and effort just to learn pieces?
People just wanna learn pieces quickly? And many don't have the time to learn music like I do?
I remeber watching a video with Billy Joel talking about how he liked to improvise on the simple classical pieces he was taught as a child. I guess the way piano are ussulay taught today don't fit everyone.


Last edited by Manne janne; 09/15/19 04:44 AM.
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890594 09/15/19 08:35 AM
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I think classical analysis is part of classical training too. I got my initiation to it, right here from classically trained instructors. What is discouraged is finding notes by ear instead of relying on the score. I'm bad for that as i had a 30 year head start relying on my ear before starting to read classical. I can tell you, it is harder to recognize incorrect harmony that still sounds right. I think when it comes to classical studies, reading should take priority.

From the day you start playing your ear is developing. You recognize a wrong note straight away and the score will verify it. So it is not like it is totally ignored. As we develop as musicians further and further, all the skills advance and all are of benefit. But, as also pointed out it is good to focus on one element at a time. Analysis is theory based and still doesn't get at the sound. If it helps your understanding though, absolutely use it.

Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Greener] #2890604 09/15/19 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Greener
I think classical analysis is part of classical training too. I got my initiation to it, right here from classically trained instructors. What is discouraged is finding notes by ear instead of relying on the score. I'm bad for that as i had a 30 year head start relying on my ear before starting to read classical. I can tell you, it is harder to recognize incorrect harmony that still sounds right. I think when it comes to classical studies, reading should take priority.

From the day you start playing your ear is developing. You recognize a wrong note straight away and the score will verify it. So it is not like it is totally ignored. As we develop as musicians further and further, all the skills advance and all are of benefit. But, as also pointed out it is good to focus on one element at a time. Analysis is theory based and still doesn't get at the sound. If it helps your understanding though, absolutely use it.

You're saying that one should just go all in on sight-reading rather than mixing it with other musical aspects?
But then I am not practicing to become a professional or amateur concert pianist.
I practicing to become more like an organist at a church. For those people playing by ear is important.
From an early age people are trained to become concert pianists. Then some suceed in becoming a pro
I see classical music more like a language that is used in everyday life and thus I need another approach.
Is that what you people here are talking about?

Last edited by Manne janne; 09/15/19 09:01 AM.
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890607 09/15/19 09:15 AM
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There are entire musical instrument learning approaches which rely on ear training. I'm thinking of Kodaly and Suzuki as examples.


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Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890608 09/15/19 09:16 AM
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I saw a British man on telly who went to the theatre at/on Drottningholm for a short visit. He entered the stage and recitited Shakespear by heart. I am sure this guy didn't start with learning to recite simple text from different plays. He probably started by learning the English language.
I am sure we might find people who reciting Shakespear without first learning English but it would ve rare.
I guess my approach to music is simmilar to this man's approach to theatre.

Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890610 09/15/19 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
I saw a British man on telly who went to the theatre at/on Drottningholm for a short visit. He entered the stage and recitited Shakespear by heart. I am sure this guy didn't start with learning to recite simple text from different plays. He probably started by learning the English language.
I am sure we might find people who reciting Shakespear without first learning English but it would ve rare.
I guess my approach to music is simmilar to this man's approach to theatre.

Actors speak foreign languages without learning those languages.

Not sure knowledge of English would necessarily help the recitation of Finnegan's Wake, for example



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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890611 09/15/19 09:24 AM
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My experience as a church organist was that no playing was done by ear: it was all from reading music: preludes , accompanying the choir, congregational hymns. offertories and postludes. Everything from a score whether solo or as an accompanist. I have played for several churches now and this has been true in all of them. .

Playing by ear was unnecessary.


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Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890613 09/15/19 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne

You're saying that one should just go all in on sight-reading rather than mixing it with other musical aspects?
But then I am not practicing to become a professional or amateur concert pianist.
I practicing to become more like an organist at a church. For those people playing by ear is important.

Your posts are full of contradictions.

I thought you just wanted to play what you like, and have fun doing what you want to do, no more and no less. In which case, you have carte blanche to learn (or not learn) as you see fit. Presumably, you are an adult.

If you're now talking about being a church organist, the most important thing is that you become very, very good at reading - including sight-reading. You might be asked to play hymns at sight that you've never played before. You might even have to transpose them. Have you spoken to any church organists?

Play by ear? Nope. Improvise? Yes, very likely. Which is why you need to learn your harmony really well. You need to develop your ears properly so that you can 'hear' what you're gong to play before you play it. The common chord progressions, especially that used in church music. Can you hear the harmonic progression used in this simple hymn, which uses nothing more than the basic harmonies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4TEzKULQaM

Quote
From an early age people are trained to become concert pianists. Then some suceed in becoming a pro
I see classical music more like a language that is used in everyday life and thus I need another approach.
Is that what you people here are talking about?

No-one here is training to be concert pianists.

We are all training to be good pianists.

Incidentally, you seem to be implying that you are the only one here learning the language of music, before speaking it. How can you learn the language if you cannot read it properly? Do you expect someone else to read everything for you first, so that you can then repeat what you heard?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890858 09/16/19 05:38 AM
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It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.
So in order to learn how music works you sing it?
Does singing help with sight-reading?

Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890863 09/16/19 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.

My wife told me that in children's music school in Moscow back in the late 80's/early 90's, the piano pupils spent 4 hours a day on piano, and of this, they spent significant time on Solfège. The solfège portion was 4 hours per week of solfège and sight-singing alone. Then when the solfège skill was firmly engrained in the pupil, this amount of weekly solfège training was significantly reduced after year 1.


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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2890868 09/16/19 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.

My wife told me that in children's music school in Moscow back in the late 80's/early 90's, the piano pupils spent 4 hours a day on piano, and of this, they spent significant time on Solfège. The solfège portion was 4 hours per week of solfège and sight-singing alone. Then when the solfège skill was firmly engrained in the pupil, this amount of weekly solfège training was significantly reduced after year 1.


In the US general public schools, solfege was not taught as music training. There were no national children’s music schools but choir, band and orchestra were taught as electives.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: dogperson] #2890869 09/16/19 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.

My wife told me that in children's music school in Moscow back in the late 80's/early 90's, the piano pupils spent 4 hours a day on piano, and of this, they spent significant time on Solfège. The solfège portion was 4 hours per week of solfège and sight-singing alone. Then when the solfège skill was firmly engrained in the pupil, this amount of weekly solfège training was significantly reduced after year 1.


In the US general public schools, solfege was not taught as music training. There were no national children’s music schools but choir, band and orchestra were taught as electives.

They taught solfège in my elementary school. After elementary school, I was never required to take a music class again, and I never did in school or college, until I took up piano 19 months ago.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890870 09/16/19 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.
So in order to learn how music works you sing it?
Does singing help with sight-reading?


In order to learn how music works, you need to learn how to read it. In order to sight read well, you first need to read well, read a lot of music and develop a good understanding of the musical notation —/both notes and rhythm. There is no shortcut.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: dogperson] #2890872 09/16/19 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.
So in order to learn how music works you sing it?
Does singing help with sight-reading?


In order to learn how music works, you need to learn how to read it. In order to sight read well, you first need to read well, read a lot of music and develop a good understanding of the musical notation —/both notes and rhythm. There is no shortcut.

In the Russian music schools of the late 80's/early 90's, they taught solfège in order to help piano pupil's sight-read better. I think there are some theories about the connection of these things. I posted some research studies connecting solfège and sight-reading late last year on PW.

EDIT: Can't find the one I was thinking of just now and I have a piano lesson shortly, but here is a related one.


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: dogperson] #2890925 09/16/19 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.
So in order to learn how music works you sing it?
Does singing help with sight-reading?


In order to learn how music works, you need to learn how to read it. In order to sight read well, you first need to read well, read a lot of music and develop a good understanding of the musical notation —/both notes and rhythm. There is no shortcut.

Well, many people can't read sheet music but still play or sing.
Many people can't read a text at all but still speak a language.
So we do not need yo read in order to speak a language.
I do use texts and sheet music but that is because ot helps and not because I have to use it in order to ubdetstand a language.

Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2890926 09/16/19 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.
So in order to learn how music works you sing it?
Does singing help with sight-reading?


In order to learn how music works, you need to learn how to read it. In order to sight read well, you first need to read well, read a lot of music and develop a good understanding of the musical notation —/both notes and rhythm. There is no shortcut.

In the Russian music schools of the late 80's/early 90's, they taught solfège in order to help piano pupil's sight-read better. I think there are some theories about the connection of these things. I posted some research studies connecting solfège and sight-reading late last year on PW.

I know that the primary goals of solfege training, which is btw considered very important, is ear training and training of aural imagination. So it relates more to playing by ear. I'm sure it helps with sight reading, too, but only at the basic level.

Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890928 09/16/19 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Many people can't read a text at all but still speak a language.

I'm doubtful there are any examples of people who are illiterate in a given language yet speak that language "very well." Can you think of any examples, yourself?

I do understand that one's goal in playing music might not be to play it "very well," but just to be passable.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Playing by ear vs pre-written scores [Re: Manne janne] #2890929 09/16/19 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Manne janne
It is my understanding that in the older days the kids at school had their first ear training and theory training by doing vocal exercices.
So in order to learn how music works you sing it?
Does singing help with sight-reading?


In order to learn how music works, you need to learn how to read it. In order to sight read well, you first need to read well, read a lot of music and develop a good understanding of the musical notation —/both notes and rhythm. There is no shortcut.

Well, many people can't read sheet music but still play or sing.
Many people can't read a text at all but still speak a language.
So we do not need yo read in order to speak a language.
I do use texts and sheet music but that is because ot helps and not because I have to use it in order to ubdetstand a language.
Would you agree that people who can't read a text are at a distinct disadvantage in life?

You do not need to read notation, but you are setting limitations on your experience of music if you can't. You are constrained to certain genres and you are constrained to having to have someone else play the music for you before you can play it yourself.


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