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Pre-written scores
#2889916 09/13/19 10:53 AM
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Can one play jazz from pre-written scores?

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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2889950 09/13/19 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Can one play jazz from pre-written scores?

If you comprehend the music in the score you can improvise/re-arrange/add to it and jazz it up. If you're playing a jazz score straight from the notation then it's debatable - is it jazz if it's minus the improvisation?


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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890003 09/13/19 02:11 PM
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No if you play from score this is not jazz but if you want to be a jazz player, learn it, get ride of the sheet music, change one chord, add one or two notes to the melody and keep doing it from song to song. And your mistakes are improvisation.



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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890045 09/13/19 04:32 PM
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Hmm, I think that's a pretty narrow definition of jazz... In that case, if you were playing Bach and improvised (which, as I understand, was the practice in his day) would it then become jazz?

I guess the question is, should jazz be defined based on the player's experience of the music, or based as much on the listener's experience as on the player's? If the former, then Bach+improvisation= jazz, if the latter than the definition of jazz would be more centered around the chords/voicing being used, the rhythms, where the beat is, etc.

To me, that's what makes something jazz, it's more about how it sounds.

Now, granted, I don't play jazz (yet!) so you can certainly disregard my comments if you choose. whome

But to get back to the original question, can one play jazz from pre-written scores, why not answer "yes, but" -- as in, maybe, "yes, but that overlooks one important aspect of jazz, which is creativity and originality?"

Actually, the bigger problem might be the fact that, if you want to play jazz in ways similar to what you here recorded by the greats, you're not going to be able to get very many (or any?) pre-written scores.

This is why I have decided it's time for me to start learning jazz, because I listen to it a lot and I'd like to learn how to play something like what I hear...


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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890074 09/13/19 07:05 PM
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Another way to think about it - even if you’re playing straight from a score, isn’t your interpretation of the written notes a form of improvisation? And if you’re playing a ‘jazz standard’ straight from the score would your “interpretation” of the notes satisfy the requirement for improvisation in jazz?


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Re: Pre-written scores
Groove On #2890088 09/13/19 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Another way to think about it - even if you’re playing straight from a score, isn’t your interpretation of the written notes a form of improvisation? And if you’re playing a ‘jazz standard’ straight from the score would your “interpretation” of the notes satisfy the requirement for improvisation in jazz?
I think the answer is "no". Improvisation means doing something more than following the score and including one's interpretation. That's what classical pianists do.

And, in regard to an earlier post, adding or improvising some ornaments in Bach is so small in terms of what's already in the score I don't think it's anywhere what would be called an improvisation.

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890133 09/14/19 01:12 AM
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I would call playing from a score a 'dead jazz' in contrast to a 'live jazz'. But I think it's still a jazz.

Re: Pre-written scores
Groove On #2890134 09/14/19 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Another way to think about it - even if you’re playing straight from a score, isn’t your interpretation of the written notes a form of improvisation? And if you’re playing a ‘jazz standard’ straight from the score would your “interpretation” of the notes satisfy the requirement for improvisation in jazz?

And what's interesting to me is that if jazz always includes improvisation, playing a jazz standard would not be real jazz, would it? Wouldn't the jazz standard only have been real jazz the first time it was improvisational created?


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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890141 09/14/19 02:05 AM
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It is necessary to distinguish between jazz composition and jazz standard, which in the original was a song. Pre-written Bird's “Donna Lee” is jazz, and “Fallen Leaves” isn't. However, in jazz, both of them require performance with all the jazz features of groove , rhythm, articulation, intonation, ; when "Leaves" must endure special jazz adaptation.
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I would call playing from a score a 'dead jazz' in contrast to a 'live jazz'. But I think it's still a jazz.
How do you call quotes in improvisation?

Last edited by Nahum; 09/14/19 02:08 AM.
Re: Pre-written scores
Nahum #2890147 09/14/19 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
It is necessary to distinguish between jazz composition and jazz standard, which in the original was a song. Pre-written Bird's “Donna Lee” is jazz, and “Fallen Leaves” isn't. However, in jazz, both of them require performance with all the jazz features of groove , rhythm, articulation, intonation, ; when "Leaves" must endure special jazz adaptation.
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I would call playing from a score a 'dead jazz' in contrast to a 'live jazz'. But I think it's still a jazz.
How do you call quotes in improvisation?

Spare-part surgery.
Originally Posted by Cambridge Dictionary
the process of taking a healthy organ such as a heart or lung from a person who has died and putting it into a living person to replace an organ that is not working correctly

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Re: Pre-written scores
Iaroslav Vasiliev #2890150 09/14/19 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
[
Spare-part surgery.
Originally Posted by Cambridge Dictionary
the process of taking a healthy organ such as a heart or lung from a person who has died and putting it into a living person to replace an organ that is not working correctly

smile


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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890168 09/14/19 06:36 AM
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Hi

The Ellington and Basie Orchestras played from written arrangements as far as I know; as indeed do most big bands. When the soloists played they improvised. That is still Jazz, and some of the best ever. Not everything has to improvised, unless you playing in a completely 'free' band.

So my answer is yes.

Cheers


Simon
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Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2890182 09/14/19 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi

The Ellington and Basie Orchestras played from written arrangements as far as I know; as indeed do most big bands.

This has not always been so. First there were small big bands in which arrangements were created during rehearsals. It went like this: Duke brought a new piece, sat down, and played, repeating several times; the other members of orchestra began to individually improvise riffs to this music, and the boss himself chose the best, in his opinion, riffs. Then all together repeated the selected riffs, and then laid them out by voices - unison, octaves, two-voices, chords. This is called “Head arrangement,” which actually embodied the African traditions of multi-voices heterophonic and antiphonal music. Gradually, the orchestra increased, and the arrangements became more sophisticated, which required a special arranger who wrote notes and the ability to read them. However, the combination of “head arrangement” and written arrangement is still practiced ( I myself did it in my arrangements). .

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890213 09/14/19 09:08 AM
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Hi Nahum

Thanks, I was aware of some of that, but not all.
A very interesting topic.

Have you read, or can you recommend any biographies of Ellington?

Cheers


Simon
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Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2890237 09/14/19 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi Nahum

Thanks, I was aware of some of that, but not all.
A very interesting topic.

Have you read, or can you recommend any biographies of Ellington?

Cheers
https://www.wwnorton.com/college/music/jazz-essentials/ch/08/outline.aspx

Basically, I read various articles about Ellington; and at first the first serious written source for me was the book of Joachim Berendt "The Big Jazz Book" (Das Grosse Jazzbuch). In addition, he learned a lot in live communication with American musicians and those colleagues who played in orchestras outside Berkeley College.

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890480 09/15/19 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Can one play jazz from pre-written scores?


In my somewhat uninformed opinion, if you want to learn more about jazz and how it is created (besides resorting to textbooks on jazz improvisation, etc.) go to some written out arrangements by great jazz pianists, learn them, play them and while doing so you should start to get some concept of how jazz is created and performed.

For the beginner with the jazz experience, this is probably best done if you take jazz arrangements of songs already known; then it can be more clearly seen and understood (?) what the pianists were doing to the original melody and harmony to make it "jazz."

Regards,


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Re: Pre-written scores
Simon_b #2890527 09/15/19 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon_b

Have you read, or can you recommend any biographies of Ellington?


I liked the james Lincoln Collier biography of Ellington, very interesting

Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890723 09/15/19 05:44 PM
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Thanks beeboss.

Will take a look.

Cheers


Simon
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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890776 09/15/19 10:48 PM
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I interpreted the question as if it is possible to create an authentic jazz performance from a written score. i think the answer is yes given the score is well done.

to hear what i mean check out this series of books, alfred jazz performer series:

https://amzn.to/2LS9487

each book is a collection of nicely arranged standards with written out solo choruses. a capable player would absolutely be able to create believable jazz performances of these pieces.


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Re: Pre-written scores
Manne janne #2890799 09/16/19 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzPianoOnline
I

to hear what i mean check out this series of books, alfred jazz performer series:

https://amzn.to/2LS9487

each book is a collection of nicely arranged standards with written out solo choruses. a capable player would absolutely be able to create believable jazz performances of these pieces.
Jazz isn't what is written, but what sounds. I have not seen live recordings that are attached to proposed notes, but this is the most important thing. It is not possible to learn the New York accent in English from a textbook published in States.

Last edited by Nahum; 09/16/19 12:48 AM.
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