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Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tenor1 #2889598 09/12/19 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
. . .
And how do you get this keyboard touch of a grand piano? By having a keyboard action that is very close to the keyboard action of a grand piano like it is the case in all the digital hybrid grand pianos from the current 3 makers.
End of the story!

Again, and it is worth repeating, a digital hybrid grand piano has a keyboard action of a grand piano that allows it to have the keyboard TOUCH of a grand piano. And it is through this keyboard touch of a grand piano that the pianist is able to convey the beauty and the many nuances and colors of piano music. Hence, the vital importance of this keyboard action of a grand piano in a digital hybrid grand piano.


Just a moment, please . . .

You gave a definition of a "hybrid DP" earlier, and it required having hammers that moved like those of a grand piano -- and nothing more

But now you're talking about characteristics of the "keyboard touch" (without defining what that means), as a requirement for being a "hybrid DP":

. . . Which is the right definition of "hybrid DP" ?

If someone built a moving-hammer action _without_ a grand piano's "repetition mechanism" (which I think is what Casio did):

. . . Since its touch (on fast repetitions) doesn't match that of a grand piano,

. . . . . can it be used in a "hybrid DP" ?

I think you've painted yourself into a corner, here:

. . . There is _no_ DP (that I know of) that uses an unmodified, unsimplified grand piano action;

. . . So, is there no DP that qualifies as a "hybrid DP" ?


. Charles
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Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tenor1 #2889603 09/12/19 05:57 PM
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There is no question in my mind that the GPs are fine digital pianos. I have talked with a friend about buying a GP. I'm glad Tenor1 is happy with his new GP and look forward to him recording something on it to share with us. I have no issue with GPs.


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Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tenor1 #2889624 09/12/19 07:06 PM
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Casios sound terrible in general. I've owned three of them and couldn't stand listening to any of them unless I was wearing headphones.

That said, for its price range, The GP 400 is great.

Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2889664 09/12/19 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia

All digital pianos can with full reason be considered hybrids...


However if that is the case, then you'd have to call all digital pianos hybrids - which defeats using the word at all!

So if you agree with the above statement, then you shouldn't be using the word hybrid as a differentiating feature.

Either don't use the word hybrid at all, or use it as 'hybrid action' or 'hybrid piano' - don't use hybrid ambiguously to mean both.

Regardless, I should point out that I like the GP-310 - the fact that they removed the aliquot string resonance / duplex scaling actually makes the sound superior to the GP-400 and GP-510. Aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling are design limitations of acoustic grands - they are not features. And no one should be paying extra to emulate inferior sound smile

Last edited by Burkie; 09/12/19 09:03 PM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Burkie #2889670 09/12/19 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling are design limitations of acoustic grands - they are not features. And no one should be paying extra to emulate inferior sound smile

+1!!! Something I wholeheartedly agree with! thumb

But I lump into that pedal and key noise/sounds of some piano sound generators out there... Like why would I want to pay for that to be simulated? Because I feel "comforted" by the clicks and whooshing? LOL..


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tenor1 #2889672 09/12/19 09:17 PM
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I’d like to see a digital emulate going out of tune (gradually), and then requiring a technician to come in and perform a mock-tuning for a minimal fee. If Yamaha implements this feature they have my money! wink

Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Pete14 #2889674 09/12/19 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I’d like to see a digital emulate going out of tune (gradually), and then requiring a technician to come in and perform a mock-tuning for a minimal fee. If Yamaha implements this feature they have my money! wink

I had an entire thread on design limitations of acoustics! smile


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
MikePianoLover #2889699 09/12/19 10:26 PM
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MikePianoLover, may I ask if you own a piano (be it an acoustic, digital, hybrid), and if so which manufacturer and model?

Kind regards,
James
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tyrone Slothrop #2889751 09/13/19 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
[quote=Burkie]
+1!!! Something I wholeheartedly agree with! thumb

But I lump into that pedal and key noise/sounds of some piano sound generators out there... Like why would I want to pay for that to be simulated? Because I feel "comforted" by the clicks and whooshing? LOL..

It's also worth noting that Mozart, Chopin, and Liszt composed and played all of their music without these limitations - so if you want to accurately play anything written pre-20th century then you should be disabling aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling or you are ruining the music...

And no self-respecting pianist would want to do that smile

Last edited by Burkie; 09/13/19 01:50 AM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Burkie #2889766 09/13/19 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie

Aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling are design limitations of acoustic grands - they are not features.


Blüthner would beg to differ with respect to the former, and Steinway with respect to the latter, and so would their buyers.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2889775 09/13/19 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by Burkie

Aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling are design limitations of acoustic grands - they are not features.


Blüthner would beg to differ with respect to the former, and Steinway with respect to the latter, and so would their buyers.


Read up on what they are - they're Band-Aids attempting to patch over deficiencies in acoustic piano design. They are not features.

Digital pianos do not suffer from these acoustic piano design limitations, so it makes zero sense to even attempt to emulate the Band-Aids for a non-existent problem!

The only useful feature the GP-400 & GP-510 have over the GP-310 is the ability to save settings profiles - but that is not worth paying $500 extra for, even $200 extra is extortion.

Last edited by Burkie; 09/13/19 05:03 AM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Burkie #2889778 09/13/19 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie

Read up on what they are - they're Band-Aids attempting to patch over deficiencies in acoustic piano design. They are not features.


Your are misunderstanding commerce. If buyers value aliquot string resonance, and duplex scaling, and the producers go to the trouble of putting them in, then they are features, whether you find them desirable or not. I personally find the sound made by Steinway pianos undesirable, but that does not prevent that same sound being a feature of Steinway pianos.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
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Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tyrone Slothrop #2889779 09/13/19 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
But I lump into that pedal and key noise/sounds of some piano sound generators out there... Like why would I want to pay for that to be simulated? Because I feel "comforted" by the clicks and whooshing? LOL..


The piano is also considered a percussion instrument. Key noise is a part of that identity.

If you don't care about fundamental aspects of a piano, why wouldn't you just adopt a synthesizer keyboard as the modern equivalent, or something more forward looking such as the ROLI Seaboard?

Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
navindra #2889786 09/13/19 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
But I lump into that pedal and key noise/sounds of some piano sound generators out there... Like why would I want to pay for that to be simulated? Because I feel "comforted" by the clicks and whooshing? LOL..


The piano is also considered a percussion instrument. Key noise is a part of that identity.

If you don't care about fundamental aspects of a piano, why wouldn't you just adopt a synthesizer keyboard as the modern equivalent, or something more forward looking such as the ROLI Seaboard?


I suppose it depends on what you consider fundamental aspects of the piano.

When I am playing I am doing my best to produce the sound I desire as a consequence of the hammers hitting the strings. For me the key noise and the sound of the dampers being lifted are a side of effect of making that happen on an acoustic piano. I like playing the piano because of the richness of sound a decent piano can make. I know little of synthesiser keyboards but I doubt they produce or emulate decently the sound an acoustic produces from its strings contained within the wooden environs that makes up a grand or a good quality upright. If a synthesiser keyboard with a good key action could do then it would be worth considering.

Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2889830 09/13/19 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia

Your are misunderstanding commerce. If buyers value aliquot string resonance, and duplex scaling, and the producers go to the trouble of putting them in, then they are features, whether you find them desirable or not.


You are misunderstanding marketing - which is about convincing people to buy things of no value, or in this case worse still, things of negative value.

I'll wager my bottom dollar that if I asked 100 random digital piano purchasers what aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling are 95% of them would have zero clue. You can't actually set out to purchase something of true 'value' if you never know what it actually is.

Last edited by Burkie; 09/13/19 08:17 AM.

Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
KevinM #2889833 09/13/19 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
For me the key noise and the sound of the dampers being lifted are a side of effect of making that happen on an acoustic piano.

Exactly! I'm sure that key and pedal noise was not in the original goals of the original 18-19th century designs, but they were an engineering limitation of those times,

[Linked Image]

just as having a big front wheel was not in the original goals of 19th century bicycles, but was the result of optimisation due to engineering limitations of those times!

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Burkie #2889850 09/13/19 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Burkie
Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia

Your are misunderstanding commerce. If buyers value aliquot string resonance, and duplex scaling, and the producers go to the trouble of putting them in, then they are features, whether you find them desirable or not.


You are misunderstanding marketing - which is about convincing people to buy things of no value, or in this case worse still, things of negative value.


You are mistaking your opinion for absolute truth. But don't get me wrong: I am not defending these technologies. In fact, I have no opinion on them at all.

Originally Posted by Burkie

I'll wager my bottom dollar that if I asked 100 random digital piano purchasers what aliquot string resonance and duplex scaling are 95% of them would have zero clue. You can't actually set out to purchase something of true 'value' if you never know what it actually is.


That's quite likely; these techniques invented for grand pianos were meant to inspire grand piano buyers, whereas the digital crowd was not on the horizon.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
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Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tyrone Slothrop #2889854 09/13/19 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Exactly! I'm sure that key and pedal noise was not in the original goals of the original 18-19th century designs, but they were an engineering limitation of those times,


However, this noise was inevitable, and therefore the composers were well aware that it would be part of the performance of their music. They did not anticipate this noise being absent.

For composers of our times, the matter is of course very different.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2890122 09/14/19 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia

You are mistaking your opinion for absolute truth.


If you run a poll for the forum regulars here I think you'll find that most people find Casio guilty of dodgy marketing practices and being economical with the truth.


Piano is one of the top human inventions of the past 300 years - help evangelize the magic!
Re: Casio GP-300 or GP-400?
Tenor1 #2890148 09/14/19 03:21 AM
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Here is a video showing a little more of the action of the GP series.action

I like the feel very much and it compared to Steinway grands sitting right next to the GP-500. I was extremely surprised that I liked the instruments touch and sound and enjoy it even more in my house.



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