2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
39 members (Alan B, CyberGene, Andymania, ChrisGoesPiano, 36251, Beowulf, clothearednincompo, CharlesXX, dima5222, 9 invisible), 354 guests, and 260 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
How do "YOU" set the strings....
#2889687 09/12/19 09:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 251
Duaner Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 251
We all want our tuning to stay for an extended period of time and of course we work at "setting" the strings to do this. What do you do to keep the strings you have just tuned so they hold the setting you have given them. What is your method of doing this?


Duane Graves


"Pushin 70...still haven fun I think..."
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2889702 09/12/19 10:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,566
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,566
It is a matter of developing the proper touch or feel.


Semipro Tech
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2889799 09/13/19 06:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,679
C
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,679
I manipulate the lever to a point of equilibrium with the string vibrating but cannot describe how. It is a feel thing. Kind of like a snaking wiggle inwards until it feels stable. If you end up by pushing the string out with only a slight pressure in either direction then you know it is not set with stability.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2889825 09/13/19 08:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,057
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,057
I used to visualize the old analog signal strength meter on the stereo amplifier, the one with the little needle that went back and forth. You had to listen to the signal, watch the meter, go back and forth with the dial getting down to a smaller and smaller span till you found the "sweet spot" (which wasnt always right in the middle). You kind of do the same thing with the pin/string assembly.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2889925 09/13/19 11:21 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,003
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,003
Greetings.

I practiced this approach on pitch raises, and found that eventually, a single downward motion can be refined, like a golfer refining his swing. speed and consistency improved. On pitch raises, no string gets moved more than once, as the average is more important than any individual string's exact pitch, and time is money.

I push the pin to lower the tension from a pitch slightly higher than I am aiming for, perhaps 4-8 cents higher to start. As I do this, I listen to the pitch fall and depending on the torque and flex of the pin, I aim for a spot that will be on pitch while I have the hammer moving the pin. Releasing the hammer allows the pin to "unwind" and flex backwards in whatever amount the pin was loaded with as I pushed it flat. If I get it right, the final pitch can be raised by a slight upwards lift on the hammer while on the pin, but will not move flat without flexing the pin to the max before it begins moving in the block.

The keeping the pin in motion to its final position gets me over a lot of jumpy pins, as I will start from far away and be moving the whole time. They are still a hassle, but not as much as jerking back and forth while hoping it will land somewhere I trust. It also makes unisons easier to tune, since I listen as the pitch of the second string falls closer to pure, and then finally, I can hear that purity evaporate as the pitch goes just slightly under it. this is on the order of .3 cents, at most. If I have flexed the pin perfectly, when I hear the "evaporation", I can release the hammer and hear the pitch come up that small amount.

Neither of these techniques use "test" blows to move the string around. A FFF is always given before moving on, but I will quote Jack Sprinkle, who, in 1978, gave the old school dictum, "A note that can be banged into tune can be banged out of tune". Bill Garlick would carefully listen and manipulate his hammer, then when at the proper place, give it a pretty solid whack. I follow that. Many of the pianos I tune this way I tuned 3-5 times a week, (stages), and 2-3 times a week (studios). I never saw evidence that the blocks suffered for the slight, intentional, flag-poling, that I employ as a way of maneuvering tension around friction.
Regards,

Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2889980 09/13/19 01:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,504
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,504
I pay attention to the distinctive tic that I feel when the pin moves in the block.
Sometimes - tic, tic, tic with no change in pitch then tic and big change in pitch requiring compensation.
Other times - tic and pitch changes slightly every time.
Then there are some where I can’t feel the tic.
Others where one tic gets a big pitch change.
So many different scenarios and all must be analyzed and dealt with.
If I can’t feel the tic it’s much more difficult to do a stable tuning.
After I’m comfortable with pitch and pin position I give slight hammer pressure to the flat side combined with one or more test blows.
Before I tune I like to check pitch and listen.
Then hold sustain pedal and do the forearm smash and let all 88 notes sustain.
This gets everything moving and can unseat some friction issues that don’t happen with test blows.
Then I recheck pitch and listen again.
This tells me much about what I’m up against.
After tuning I do the same forearm smash. This tells me if I didn’t set any pins correctly.
I like to keep track of temperatures and relative humidity.
Changing conditions can affect the tuning while I’m tuning. Ever finish a tuning only to discover it drifted slightly sharp?
Even on a relatively stable performance piano that is kept in tune I usually do two passes to be certain the tuning will not move during performance.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2890009 09/13/19 02:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,057
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,057
My overall MO is 95% in line with what Ed F. wrote. A variation on the "test blow" is to use more of the hand to hit 3-5 notes at once. The idea here is that less force is needed as it is spread out over several notes...gets the bridge moving better than concentrating on just the one note. Easier on the hand, easier on the ears.

"Grief shared is grief halved".

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2890096 09/13/19 08:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,679
C
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,679
Just another comment on what I do: I try not to bring the pitch too far under or over. If bringing up I try to go straight from where it is to where it should be without first dropping, and without going wildly over.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2890101 09/13/19 09:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,609
E
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,609
To add to the above descriptions: The first thing you need to know when you go to tune a string is whether it is presently in a stable state. If it is not, you will have more of a guessing game to determine how far to turn the pin in the block before you try to "settle" the string in tune.

When you go to turn a pin there are two types of flexing actions; flexing across the pin and torsional flexing. You must keep track of how much of both types of pin flexing is occurring and make sure as you get the string tuned that the flexing is removed.

I believe there is some very slight permanent torsional bending that tuners do when setting the string and this is stable. If you try to permanently bend the pin to curve it along its length, you will damage the pinblock and stable setting will not be as easy to achieve because the deformed block will creep back slower than the pin flex rate and change the pitch.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2890198 09/14/19 08:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,772
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,772
Originally Posted by Duaner
We all want our tuning to stay for an extended period of time and of course we work at "setting" the strings to do this. What do you do to keep the strings you have just tuned so they hold the setting you have given them. What is your method of doing this?

I'm very slowly driving up a handle to 12 o'clock always. Let my tuning reach a long time but I have believes that keeping of a stability of a pitch is good credo for it's.

Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2890454 09/14/19 10:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 251
Duaner Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 251
Hi Max. I wish I had a translator because I'm sure you have some interesting and helpful points of view but as it is I can't get a word of English from your video instruction. Sometimes there's a translation tab but I see none on this. Take care, Duane.


Duane Graves


"Pushin 70...still haven fun I think..."
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2890470 09/15/19 12:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,772
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,772
Originally Posted by Duaner
Hi Max. I wish I had a translator because I'm sure you have some interesting and helpful points of view but as it is I can't get a word of English from your video instruction. Sometimes there's a translation tab but I see none on this. Take care, Duane.


thank, Duane
here a professional girl translator from English tried to explain AS it's work, only the sound is quiet. I explain for use a T-bar wrench , however for a traditional L tuning hammer, this works as well. My method is that ALL manipulations (routes) of a hammer handle are required to be only on the left side of the dial from to up (9 hour to 12) only. Ideal need do it's very near to 12
why? Thus, when the handle of tuning hammer moves in this direction up, we completely turn off the string pressure (-) for a pin. A pin drive has in axis movement only in the hole and in a bush. We preserve the resource wooden part of the pin block and this operation gives reason to believe that a pitch will be more long-term, I believe.
Max,

Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2893240 09/22/19 11:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 528
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 528
Pitch Raise:
1 or 2 taps sharp to pitch, 1 tap slightly sharper to about my 1/3 target point, and 1 gentle pull to settle... By my 1/3 target point, meaning, if piano is -30, will take it about 8 cents sharp- and it will settle back to just under pitch (I usually under calculate my stretch slightly, as I don't like having the mid-section end up settling sharp of 440-- prefer it 1 or 2 cents flat when I go to tune it)... Try never to take my stretch more than 15 cents sharp of A440 in pitch raising--- would rather do a double. And ALWAYS back off on pitch as a first motion on the oldies.

On less than 20 cents distance- will usually simply take 1 tap and 1 pull to settle.
After 20 years of doing this, you get a feel for how much of a tap you need.
And Ed's right-- its a futile waste of effort to try to make a pitch raise (or lowering) sound good- that is not the goal.

But, more in answer to the actual question of what you do in setting strings to achieve stability:
The less you move the string back and forth the better your stability will be...shoot for 2 or 3 movements at most to the set point (get it down to where you don't overshoot or over-settle and have to go sharp/flat again). If you are going back and forth, over-shooting, over correcting, you'll never get it stable.
Less motions, the happier the piano. And the closer you get the thing to A440 on your pitch stabilizations, the easier it'll let you do just this at fine tuning time.

By the way- guess I should have pointed this out- all of this is in the tapping method/impact method...... I rarely find the need to do the slow-pull/push method on pitch raises or tuning (other than on most extreme cases of stubborn pins).


Edit: the, "1 gentle pull" is for uprights to settle.... of course for a grand I am pushing.

Last edited by Rick_Parks; 09/22/19 11:08 PM.

Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: How do "YOU" set the strings....
Duaner #2893540 09/23/19 09:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,057
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,057
In the end, balance is the key...balancing of all the forces involved.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Summer sale: Beautiful PEARL Concert Grand
by Andrew_G - 07/10/20 03:43 AM
Hammer Drilling Jig
by BDB - 07/10/20 12:15 AM
Chicago's "Colour My World"
by MacMorrighan - 07/09/20 09:53 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,158
Posts2,978,977
Members97,722
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4