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Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2888965
09/10/19 12:36 PM
09/10/19 12:36 PM
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MacMacMac Offline
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Even if it's still in warranty ... you can still open it up for a fix. Opening it does not void the warranty. At least not in the US.

I did not read the original problem ... was it a bad pot in the pedal mechanism?
If so ... I wonder whether anyone has researched a better component?

My Clav is eleven years old ... and the pedal works just fine.
I guess Yamaha uses better pot, right?

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Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: MacMacMac] #2888969
09/10/19 12:49 PM
09/10/19 12:49 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Even if it's still in warranty ... you can still open it up for a fix. Opening it does not void the warranty. At least not in the US.

I did not read the original problem ... was it a bad pot in the pedal mechanism?
If so ... I wonder whether anyone has researched a better component?

My Clav is eleven years old ... and the pedal works just fine.
I guess Yamaha uses better pot, right?


Yeah, probably a better pot in the Yamaha, there have been a few accounts of the F-30 pedal unit failing in this way, and some rather inventive fixes (including one guy who swapped the guts for a contact-less hall effect sensor.

People have looked into replacing the pot as well, but IIRC it wasn't a readily-available off the shelf unit, without clear voltage range or taper. Also, there are accounts that it's very small and difficult to rework.

I think that's why replacing the F-30 with the new Kawai-built all-optical 3-pedal unit was by far the right move for the MP7SE/MP11SE (this is the same underlying pedal mechanism used in other Kawai DPs like the NV-10, ES8, CA-series as well).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2888974
09/10/19 01:07 PM
09/10/19 01:07 PM
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Yeah, I wish I could just throw money at KAWAI and get one of them MP11-SE pedals for my VPC 1.
The hall mod definitely looks interesting, not sure if I could pull it off though. ^^


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2889013
09/10/19 03:25 PM
09/10/19 03:25 PM
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The same thing happened to my Kawai MP10. The problem wasn't with the pedal, as it was the same when using a replacement.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: johnstaf] #2889016
09/10/19 03:55 PM
09/10/19 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
The same thing happened to my Kawai MP10. The problem wasn't with the pedal, as it was the same when using a replacement.

It has to be the pedal, I already recalibrated and the behavior is independent from the VST used.
I doubt that the electronics of the piano are involved.

Last edited by Granyala; 09/10/19 03:56 PM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2889118
09/10/19 10:13 PM
09/10/19 10:13 PM
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It is possible to use different pedals with the VPC1? For example, could you connect a single continuous sustain pedal to the sustain input, such as the Kawai F-10H? I'm guessing options are limited for the other pedal input since that is for the sostenuto and una corda pedal. I'm curious myself since I'm considering purchasing the VPC1.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Granyala] #2889126
09/10/19 10:59 PM
09/10/19 10:59 PM
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Posts: 15,505
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by johnstaf
The same thing happened to my Kawai MP10. The problem wasn't with the pedal, as it was the same when using a replacement.

It has to be the pedal, I already recalibrated and the behavior is independent from the VST used.
I doubt that the electronics of the piano are involved.


Yes, it's a pedal problem - nothing to do with the VPC1 or VST.

I was going to suggest trying the pedal calibration tool, however if you have already done so, and this is the outcome, I expect the only option remaining is to contact your Kawai distributor (Kawai Europe?) for technical assistance.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: jon123] #2889127
09/10/19 11:01 PM
09/10/19 11:01 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by jon123
It is possible to use different pedals with the VPC1? For example, could you connect a single continuous sustain pedal to the sustain input, such as the Kawai F-10H?


I don't believe the F-10H will work, unfortunately, as this is an optical pedal. A simple on/off switch pedal may work (although I have never tried...), but at the very least you would obviously lose half-damper functionality.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Kawai James] #2889132
09/10/19 11:35 PM
09/10/19 11:35 PM
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jon123 Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I don't believe the F-10H will work, unfortunately, as this is an optical pedal. A simple on/off switch pedal may work (although I have never tried...), but at the very least you would obviously lose half-damper functionality.

Why would that be? My assumption is that the continuous MIDI signal correlates with a continuous voltage signal. I would think it should not matter where that voltage signal comes from whether it is a potentiometer, a Hall effect sensor, or an optical sensor. Is there something different about the optical sensor which makes it unique?

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2889133
09/10/19 11:47 PM
09/10/19 11:47 PM
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jon123 Offline
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Thinking about it more, I guess one issue could be the optical pedal having a different voltage requirement than the standard pedal.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2889134
09/10/19 11:58 PM
09/10/19 11:58 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Yes, my response above was not clear.

It's not simply the method used to measure the movement of the pedal, but the way this information is delivered to the instrument. I have not personally tried it, however I recall colleagues explaining in the past that the F-10H would not function with the VPC1.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: jon123] #2889135
09/11/19 12:13 AM
09/11/19 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jon123
It is possible to use different pedals with the VPC1? For example, could you connect a single continuous sustain pedal to the sustain input, such as the Kawai F-10H? I'm guessing options are limited for the other pedal input since that is for the sostenuto and una corda pedal. I'm curious myself since I'm considering purchasing the VPC1.

The F10H has a stereo jack plug, so it uses 3 signals (I had one briefly for my MP7SE).

My guess would be [ground, + voltage, signal] opposed to [ground, +voltage] of the Sustain pedal from the F30.

The F30 basically appears as a variable resistor to the VPC, the resulting measured voltage then gets translated into the pedal position.

Other pot based pedals should work if you Frankenstein the cables.

Ofc KAWAI could be nice and add an adapter, so we could use the new MP11SE pedals but I seriously doubt they're interested in that.

Last edited by Granyala; 09/11/19 12:17 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Granyala] #2889145
09/11/19 12:58 AM
09/11/19 12:58 AM
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Posts: 15,505
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Ofc KAWAI could be nice and add an adapter, so we could use the new MP11SE pedals but I seriously doubt they're interested in that.


I actually looked into this with R&D previously, however unfortunately it's not simply a case of adding an adapter to physically connect the new pedal unit, and everything magically working.

I'm reluctant to go into the details, however I think it's safe to assume that if there was a viable way to allow existing VPC1/MP11/MP7 owners to upgrade to the GFP-3 pedal unit, we probably would have delivered it by now.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Kawai James] #2889203
09/11/19 08:09 AM
09/11/19 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I actually looked into this with R&D previously, however unfortunately it's not simply a case of adding an adapter to physically connect the new pedal unit, and everything magically working.

The adapter would require to

a) deliver the necessary voltage
b) convert the pedal output into midi

Then you could plug it into the midi-in of the VPC1.

Yeah, I can see a pedal needing a dedicated wall wart to work not being a very attractive solution. Only other solution would be to release an updated VPC-1 electronics board for the DIYers.

Last edited by Granyala; 09/11/19 08:10 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2889216
09/11/19 09:01 AM
09/11/19 09:01 AM
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Gombessa Offline
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I wouldn't expect all pots to output the same voltage range or have the same resistor values, with the same taper/rate, but I'm far from an expert. I've added pots to various R/C units that have worked fine, but thinking back on it I've just been taking a shot in the dark with random components. I figure that's kind of the same with these different pedals.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Gombessa] #2889264
09/11/19 12:58 PM
09/11/19 12:58 PM
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Granyala Offline
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I wouldn't expect all pots to output the same voltage range or have the same resistor values, with the same taper/rate, but I'm far from an expert. I've added pots to various R/C units that have worked fine, but thinking back on it I've just been taking a shot in the dark with random components. I figure that's kind of the same with these different pedals.

They don't but the ┬ÁC inside of the VPC1 has a limited range of voltages and voltage steps it can interpret properly.

If a pot changes from 5V down to 1V or 5V down to 2V that's not really an issue, given we have a calibration tool.
If the optical pedal changes from 1V to 1.5V, it may very well be not enough for the controller to work with.

Also, keep in mind that a pot acts as a variable resistor (the VPC basically measures the resistance) while an optical pedal outputs a voltage and acts as a source.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Granyala] #2889283
09/11/19 02:21 PM
09/11/19 02:21 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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Yes, the pedal is a pot ... and it acts as a voltage source, measured by the piano.
Originally Posted by Granyala
... a pot acts as a variable resistor (the VPC basically measures the resistance) while an optical pedal outputs a voltage and acts as a source.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2890084
09/13/19 07:58 PM
09/13/19 07:58 PM
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Are there still issues with the damper pedal on the F-30 units? Our first VPC1's pedal was rather funky. The potentiometer for the damper pedal would come loose thus throwing off the calibration since the pot was no longer sending the correct resistance values. I'd suggest opening the pedal and checking the pot for the damper pedal... if it's loose then it's also out of range most likely. It will send erratic CC64 signals and confuse any VST looking for smooth CC64 pedal input. Even a new working F-30 doesn't send smooth MIDI data unlike other pedals like from Roland and Yamaha. The F-30 unit is not a good match for such a great controller like the VPC1 as the damper pedal is sluggish (rolling a pot with greased nylon gears with mechanical resistance) and the other two pedals are on/off only thus limiting their usability. In contrast, my Roland A-88 (sadly discontinued) uses their RPU-3 pedal unit which is chunky but has completely smooth pedals, all continuous control. I do like the size and height of the F-30 better than the Roland RPU-3 as it's closer to a standard acoustic grand, but its internal mechanism could be better given the VPC1 is meant to be a universal piano VST controller.

Lance @ VI Labs


Lance @ VI Labs
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Lance VI Labs] #2890142
09/14/19 02:28 AM
09/14/19 02:28 AM
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Granyala Offline
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Originally Posted by Lance VI Labs
Are there still issues with the damper pedal on the F-30 units?

To be blunt: That's what you get for outsourcing to the lowest bidder.
There is a reason why they abandoned these pedals for the MP11SE and started creating them themselves.
IIRC they even cited "improved reliability" as a perk.

It just sucks that there aren't really any other options for the VPC1.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2890167
09/14/19 06:30 AM
09/14/19 06:30 AM
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No, that's not what you get for outsourcing to the lowest bidder. That's just a silly cliche. A tired, very old cliche.

No, instead ... it's what you get for not having a proper culture of quality.

I cannot know how the part was sourced by Kawai, but consider ...
Was a vendor assessment performed?
How long has the vendor been in business?
From whom does the vendor source his incoming parts and subassemblies?
What level of outgoing inspection is performed by the vendor?
What level of incoming inspection is performed by Kawai?
Does anyone perform accelerated life testing of parts and assemblies?
There's much more ... but that's a start.

So ... low price isn't everything.
And low-price vendors are often low in price because they do things right, thereby gaining a good reputation ... and avoiding the cost of rejected material, both in the shop and after the sale.

The Japanese were quick and effective with that last bit. And that's what killed US manufacturing of consumer electronics starting in the 1970s.
Can any of you remember a time when we turned up our noses ... legitimately ... at Asian-made goods (cue: the 1950s version of Doc Brown).

Some of us here in the US learned that lesson. Many did not. It seems that China has not (yet) learned.

I still don't know who makes the VPC pedals. But ... as I look at every manufactured item around me ... every single one ... the label on the bottom says ... you guessed it.

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