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Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Jethro] #2889458
09/12/19 11:31 AM
09/12/19 11:31 AM
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Acoustic pianos are beautiful instruments and have an enviable history that is unmatched in the music world. That will never change.

But technology marches forward. Hybrids are also wonderful instruments, and have some strong advantages. Kudos to Yamaha for creating this technology and giving its customers choices so they can decide for themselves which instruments works best for their particular situation.

Here is Simone Dinnerstein practicing Goldberg Variation 28 on a Yamaha AvantGrand N2

https://www.facebook.com/simonedinnerstein/videos/927360597312266/

This video includes a brief comment from Dinnerstein (in the Comments area) about the N2.

https://www.facebook.com/simonedinnerstein/videos/928326690548990/


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Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: JJHLH] #2889469
09/12/19 12:05 PM
09/12/19 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JJHLH
Acoustic pianos are beautiful instruments and have an enviable history that is unmatched in the music world. That will never change.

But technology marches forward. Hybrids are also wonderful instruments, and have some strong advantages. Kudos to Yamaha for creating this technology and giving its customers choices so they can decide for themselves which instruments works best for their particular situation.

Here is Simone Dinnerstein practicing Goldberg Variation 28 on a Yamaha AvantGrand N2

https://www.facebook.com/simonedinnerstein/videos/927360597312266/

This video includes a brief comment from Dinnerstein (in the Comments area) about the N2.

https://www.facebook.com/simonedinnerstein/videos/928326690548990/

Yes I am a big fan of Pianoteq and my Kawai VPC-1 controller. It's a great practice tool a perfect complement for my acoustic piano but not a replacement. So many choices not enough time.

Last edited by Jethro; 09/12/19 12:06 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Jethro] #2889486
09/12/19 12:42 PM
09/12/19 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
It's just sad that owning an acoustic piano is seen as an "ideal" when it was a mainstay for so many middle class families when times were much simpler. "Idealism" is just an excuse for bad or lazy parenting. Ooops did I say that? shocked

I find this rather uncaring since many are unable to afford just afford a reasonable upright.
You yourself sound as if you have a really wonderful accoustic piano.(looking at your profile)

Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Lady Bird] #2889491
09/12/19 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Jethro
It's just sad that owning an acoustic piano is seen as an "ideal" when it was a mainstay for so many middle class families when times were much simpler. "Idealism" is just an excuse for bad or lazy parenting. Ooops did I say that? shocked

I find this rather uncaring since many are unable to afford just afford a reasonable upright.
You yourself sound as if you have a really wonderful accoustic piano.(looking at your profile)

It was an half attempt at humor but it is true, ownership of a decent acoustic piano is really not out of the reach for many families if they really wanted to make it work but you would have to first appreciate why you are making that decision in the first place for it to make any sense to you.

I have no bias against electronic instruments. For many years I enjoyed and continue to enjoy using them. As you can see I have owned many of them in search of that perfect acoustic replacement when I did not have the means and failed miserably. It was not for a lack of trying or prejudice against electronics. My VPC-1 (+Pianoteq) is a nice complement to my acoustic but like I said not a replacement because it simply does not perform at the same level as my acoustic or any acoustic I've come across in the past. It is a different instrument to me, more like a useful tool.

Last edited by Jethro; 09/12/19 01:01 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: letsplayit] #2889626
09/12/19 07:14 PM
09/12/19 07:14 PM
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The OP is was actually trying to decide between a Kawai K300 or or a U1.
Personally I would not want to be involved in such a choice as I never really
liked the 2 examples of the K300 I tried.The U1 (floor model only)would be my choice !
The K500 I tried was wonderful.A close 2nd would be U3 which was also great.
The K400 I tried and I really enjoyed as well ,but not to the same degree.
I am more of a Kawai person than a Yamaha person and probably would choose a Kawai grand
because that was what I was used to .(If I were to buy a grand)
But I must say Yamaha also make beautiful sounding instruments !!!
So I understand perfectly why people like J&J ,ShiroKuro, and Rickster all love thier pianos so much !
So good for Yamaha and Kawai, the tough competition has "kept them on thier toes " in terms of
quality and musicality.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 09/12/19 07:20 PM. Reason: Spelling
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: letsplayit] #2889630
09/12/19 07:22 PM
09/12/19 07:22 PM
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Oh yes and do NOT forget Boston and other brands !

Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Jethro] #2889722
09/12/19 11:01 PM
09/12/19 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
[quote=VladK]Hi Vlad please don't kid yourself into believing that any Julliard students taking piano performance as a major at Julliard are regularly practicing on an digital piano like the Avantgrand. Julliard is noted for having the largest Steinway grand collection in the world around 275 acoustic pianos to be exact. The only reason there are a few Yamaha digitals hanging around is because they are contributing money to build some of their technology departments and if digitals are being used they are being used for non-piano majors probably in group classes for courses in composition or introductory courses. At the Center for Innovation in the Arts where Julliard students explore technology in music at the center is a Yamaha C7 acoustic. Julliard would not survive long as an institution if word got out that piano performance majors were learning on digitals.


That was not my point. $8-14K digital can't compete with decent 6 foot grand that cost 3 times more. My point is if it is good enough for Juilliard to bring it in - it is good enough for 90% of piano players. And in long run digitals will improve to the degree they will deliver action and sound as good as in best acoustics, while providing flexibility and options that can't be achieved with acoustic. Technology advances unbelievably fast. 30 years ago IBM System 360 used B&W CRT monitors, punchcards and punchtapes. 30 years from now we can't even imagine what technological advances we will use.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
Adult beginner.
Yamaha P-515, P-80, HS8, Sennheiser HD 650
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: VladK] #2889743
09/13/19 12:42 AM
09/13/19 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by VladK

That was not my point. $8-14K digital can't compete with decent 6 foot grand that cost 3 times more. My point is if it is good enough for Juilliard to bring it in - it is good enough for 90% of piano players. And in long run digitals will improve to the degree they will deliver action and sound as good as in best acoustics, while providing flexibility and options that can't be achieved with acoustic. Technology advances unbelievably fast. 30 years ago IBM System 360 used B&W CRT monitors, punchcards and punchtapes. 30 years from now we can't even imagine what technological advances we will use.

Computer technology has had the hurricane-force tailwind of military research budgets. Speaker technology has had nowhere near the rate of progress. Music conservatories purchase pianos to be used exclusively as practice instruments, which is a much less challenging set of requirements than an instrument to be used by a soloist on stage with a symphony orchestra in a large hall, and even less stringent than a piano in a living room to okay for others.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck, arguably the historically first great keyboard virtuoso.
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: VladK] #2889758
09/13/19 02:56 AM
09/13/19 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by VladK
Originally Posted by Jethro
[quote=VladK]Hi Vlad please don't kid yourself into believing that any Julliard students taking piano performance as a major at Julliard are regularly practicing on an digital piano like the Avantgrand. Julliard is noted for having the largest Steinway grand collection in the world around 275 acoustic pianos to be exact. The only reason there are a few Yamaha digitals hanging around is because they are contributing money to build some of their technology departments and if digitals are being used they are being used for non-piano majors probably in group classes for courses in composition or introductory courses. At the Center for Innovation in the Arts where Julliard students explore technology in music at the center is a Yamaha C7 acoustic. Julliard would not survive long as an institution if word got out that piano performance majors were learning on digitals.


That was not my point. $8-14K digital can't compete with decent 6 foot grand that cost 3 times more. My point is if it is good enough for Juilliard to bring it in - it is good enough for 90% of piano players. And in long run digitals will improve to the degree they will deliver action and sound as good as in best acoustics, while providing flexibility and options that can't be achieved with acoustic. Technology advances unbelievably fast. 30 years ago IBM System 360 used B&W CRT monitors, punchcards and punchtapes. 30 years from now we can't even imagine what technological advances we will use.


Again look at my signature which is just keyboards I've owned over the last 30 years, I have nothing against technology. I've embraced and accept it for what it is but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that they will be able to build an affordable digital piano that will deliver action and sound as good as the best acoustics. Not at least in my lifetime and some point I have to wonder why they are attempting this at all. If they are able to one day synthesize a piano made completely out of inorganic material that plays, feels, responds, sounds as good as a the best acoustic out there I'd be overjoyed. It really isn't the instrument that makes the art, but it is when we start watering down what we find acceptable the art starts to diminish. As pianists we paint on a canvas of sound. What painter would want to wake up one day and find out that he or she is restricted to painting with only 10 colors and limited number of brushstrokes? Digitals are too limiting as an expressive instrument. Right now or maybe never digitals cannot replace the acoustic piano, but I believe it's happening to the detriment of the art and the piano industry.

Also, just because Yamaha sold (or most likely donated) a few digital pianos to Julliard in continuing quest to boost it's "brand" doesn't mean digital pianos are good enough for 90% of piano players. All it means is those 90% of piano players are settling for subpar instruments. It would be a tragedy if one day 90% of all pianos being played were digital and only 10% were acoustic. Then we'll be pretty sure the art of the piano is dead.

This is the Yamaha ad most people refer to when they talk about Yamaha digitals and Julliard. It is important to recognize that it is a marketing ad, but I agree with Dr. Shinn's assessment at the real end of the ad that Yamaha was wise to leave all the way until the end. He explains that these pianos were for small outdoor entertainment when the weather is bad or fluctuating humidity. I could see one of these owned by wedding reception halls for outdoor cocktail hour. That's perfect application of a this type digital instrument, but no serious pianist would take this as their primary instrument.



Outdoor entertainment? Fine. But Yamaha's caption in this video reads: "Touch, pedal feel, reverberation, and resonance—by all metrics, the AvantGrand N3X meets or surpasses the demands of even the most discriminating pianist." That's just a bunch of malarky!


This is what meets or surpasses the demands of the most discriminating pianist:

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=351&v=BwEKPu17zCo[/video]




Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 03:04 AM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Jethro] #2889765
09/13/19 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
"Touch, pedal feel, reverberation, and resonance—by all metrics, the AvantGrand N3X meets or surpasses the demands of even the most discriminating pianist." That's just a bunch of malarky!


“Ms. Dinnerstein started on the AvantGrand N2 (), an upright piano with the action and sound of a grand. “I think this is kind of amazing actually. I could probably be fooled that this was a real piano,” said Ms. Dinnerstein. “There’s something a little bit freaky about it—but I love it. I would definitely consider having one of these.”

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2056835/1/wsj-article-on-n2.html


Yamaha N1X, P-515. Garritan CFX. Genelec 8331 monitors.
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: letsplayit] #2889816
09/13/19 07:44 AM
09/13/19 07:44 AM
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If you play an AvantGrand of any flavor, you will never confuse it with an acoustic, despite her endorsement and carefully chosen words. That is NOT to say they are not good or even preferable in some situations, and the action feels good. But the sound / sensations of playing would not often be confused with an (decent) acoustic. I'm quite confident plenty of people could make it sound better than I could ever hope to!

Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: JJHLH] #2889832
09/13/19 08:23 AM
09/13/19 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JJHLH
Originally Posted by Jethro
"Touch, pedal feel, reverberation, and resonance—by all metrics, the AvantGrand N3X meets or surpasses the demands of even the most discriminating pianist." That's just a bunch of malarky!


“Ms. Dinnerstein started on the AvantGrand N2 (), an upright piano with the action and sound of a grand. “I think this is kind of amazing actually. I could probably be fooled that this was a real piano,” said Ms. Dinnerstein. “There’s something a little bit freaky about it—but I love it. I would definitely consider having one of these.”

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2056835/1/wsj-article-on-n2.html

Yes and if you read through that entire article it is a pretty damning critique by Ms Dinnerstein on the majority of the best digital pianos on the market today. She didn't like practically ANY of them. In fact, she didn't like the Avantgrand N3s that Juliard uses for outdoor festivals saying they sounded and felt "less realistic". On the only model that she liked the lesser Avantgrand N2 she stated that through earphones the "timbre was markedly more electronic" which negates the very reason any professional artists even consider one these- for silent play. So that article pretty much supports everything I've been telling you guys. Most professional artists wouldn't want one of these pianos as their primary instrument. For silent practice to learn a few notes or when entertaining guests on the patio- sure, but they are not instruments to be taken seriously by serious pianists.

Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 08:26 AM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: letsplayit] #2889842
09/13/19 08:40 AM
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I'm sorry this thread went OT in regards to acoustics versus digitals but one poster brought them into the conversation as a point saying that Yamaha was more innovative than Kawai because of their "advances" in digital pianos. This thread, I believe was in reference to acoustics- which I would say at this point Kawai and Yamaha are practically on equal footing. I could care less how good Yamaha is at promoting fake pianos.

Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 08:41 AM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: letsplayit] #2889948
09/13/19 12:06 PM
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Here's just one good video on the matter. Again my apologies but this guy sets the record straight on these "soulless counterfeits"

If a father of 8 who probably earns a modest living can buy an acoustic piano, I'm sure most other families can as well.


Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 12:08 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: letsplayit] #2889955
09/13/19 12:16 PM
09/13/19 12:16 PM
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Jethro
Why have you decided the pianist in the video probably earns a modest living? For Pete’s sake, it is the family piano store.

There are many other reasons for choosing a digital over an acoustic that I won’t belabor here. No matter what someone chooses, I’m just pleased there is another person who enjoys making music.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: dogperson] #2889957
09/13/19 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Jethro
Why have you decided the pianist in the video probably earns a modest living? For Pete’s sake, it is the family piano store.

There are many other reasons for choosing a digital over an acoustic that I won’t belabor here. No matter what someone chooses, I’m just pleased there is another person who enjoys making music.

You're right I missed his last name in his intro. Good for him. But what he is saying is important for those who want or want their children to make music on the piano. The art is important to me and I think it is very important that the primary instrument that makes it an art is represented faithfully.

Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 12:30 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Jethro] #2889960
09/13/19 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
I'm sorry this thread went OT in regards to acoustics versus digitals but one poster brought them into the conversation as a point saying that Yamaha was more innovative than Kawai because of their "advances" in digital pianos. This thread, I believe was in reference to acoustics- which I would say at this point Kawai and Yamaha are practically on equal footing. I could care less how good Yamaha is at promoting fake pianos.

It went off-topic because there is no basis for saying that Yamaha or Kawai pianos are generally better than the other. Digital and acoustic pianos each have strengths and weaknesses. Whereas a Yamaha vs Kawai debate will not reach a conclusion because it is a matter of subjective preference, a digital vs acoustic debate eventually falls apart because they meet different requirements. I’m pretty sure that if I replace my acoustic piano, it will be with a different acoustic piano, and my digital piano will be replaced with another digital piano.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck, arguably the historically first great keyboard virtuoso.
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Sweelinck] #2889963
09/13/19 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Jethro
I'm sorry this thread went OT in regards to acoustics versus digitals but one poster brought them into the conversation as a point saying that Yamaha was more innovative than Kawai because of their "advances" in digital pianos. This thread, I believe was in reference to acoustics- which I would say at this point Kawai and Yamaha are practically on equal footing. I could care less how good Yamaha is at promoting fake pianos.

It went off-topic because there is no basis for saying that Yamaha or Kawai pianos are generally better than the other. Digital and acoustic pianos each have strengths and weaknesses. Whereas a Yamaha vs Kawai debate will not reach a conclusion because it is a matter of subjective preference, a digital vs acoustic debate eventually falls apart because they meet different requirements. I’m pretty sure that if I replace my acoustic piano, it will be with a different acoustic piano, and my digital piano will be replaced with another digital piano.

Points well taken. I have use for both as well. I practice on my work days on a digital when I'm at my work apartment and polish pieces when I can on my acoustic. I agree there is no real discernible difference in quality or "this brand is better than that brand" between Yamaha and Kawai acoustic pianos. It boils down to preference. What is concerning to me is that there is a lot of misleading information out there in regards to the suitability of a digital for certain applications. Some people really don't care and that's fine too, both for those who want to make the best educated decision I think it's important that people get accurate information or at least have an understanding where that information is coming from. You can call it pet peeve of mine.

Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 12:51 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: Jethro] #2889974
09/13/19 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by dogperson
Jethro
Why have you decided the pianist in the video probably earns a modest living? For Pete’s sake, it is the family piano store.

There are many other reasons for choosing a digital over an acoustic that I won’t belabor here. No matter what someone chooses, I’m just pleased there is another person who enjoys making music.

You're right I missed his last name in his intro. Good for him. But what he is saying is important for those who want or want their children to make music on the piano. The art is important to me and I think it is very important that the primary instrument that makes it an art is represented faithfully.


Jethro
This is far from an unbiased video given that he is an acoustic tech in his family-owned piano business. YOU believe an acoustic piano is always the best choice but it is not always the most suitable for everyone. And I write this as an acoustic owner...... because it was the right choice FOR ME. .... I am not under the perception that I can/should make this decision for everyone else. ... or that my choice is right for them.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Hot topic, Does Yamaha make better pianos than Kawai [Re: dogperson] #2889977
09/13/19 01:15 PM
09/13/19 01:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 923
J
Jethro Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jethro  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 923
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by dogperson
Jethro
Why have you decided the pianist in the video probably earns a modest living? For Pete’s sake, it is the family piano store.

There are many other reasons for choosing a digital over an acoustic that I won’t belabor here. No matter what someone chooses, I’m just pleased there is another person who enjoys making music.

You're right I missed his last name in his intro. Good for him. But what he is saying is important for those who want or want their children to make music on the piano. The art is important to me and I think it is very important that the primary instrument that makes it an art is represented faithfully.


Jethro
This is far from an unbiased video given that he is an acoustic tech in his family-owned piano business. YOU believe an acoustic piano is always the best choice but it is not always the most suitable for everyone. And I write this as an acoustic owner...... because it was the right choice FOR ME. .... I am not under the perception that I can/should make this decision for everyone else. ... or that my choice is right for them.



Dog,

Well, I've made the same point in others posts. Of course there are times when a digital is more suitable. Look how many digitals I have owned. I have to use a digital for my work apartment because I am in an apartment though there are other silent systems that can purchased for an acoustic. This is not a question of what is right for ME or YOU. What is important is that misinformation is not spread when someone is trying to make an educated decision on what they want to do. It is NOT correct information to say that a digital piano is appropriate for 90% of piano players because Julliard has some on campus. That's false information and if a well meaning parent wanted to buy a piano for their talented child and did not know where to start- that kind of information can be damaging. Do YOU understand what I'm saying?

Last edited by Jethro; 09/13/19 01:20 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK2 (2019), Kawai RX-2 (2007), Young Chang (1982), Kawai VPC-1 (2019), Yamaha P80 (2001), Korg C-50 (1995) , Roland Juno 1 (1988), Korg Poly 61 (1986), Lowrey Symphonic Holiday (1975)
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