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Re: Steinway L 1925 with sustain problems [Re: PianissimoMe] #2888904
09/10/19 09:45 AM
09/10/19 09:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Melbourne, Australia
P
PianissimoMe Offline OP
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PianissimoMe  Offline OP
Full Member
P

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Melbourne, Australia
All,
Thank you so much for your comments. I have read many posts on this site on this subject (and others) and marvel at the diversity of experience, opinion and debate amongst you. Its so cool that forums like this breakdown the tyranny of distance so easily, so we can share our passion.

Grand pianos are not widely available in Australia, and restorers who replace soundboards almost non existent. Steinway Grand pianos are far and few between, and even more so NY, since Hamburg is sold in Australia. They are ubiquitous in the US, so that is another reason why I seek some insight from you all in the US, who have had so much opportunity for experience with these pianos.

I measured the crown from underneath in the three widest inter-rib sections that could fit a 39" (1m) straight edge that I have on hand. Counting ribs from the front/treble end :

rib 6-7 span = 40", crown measured over 39" = 0.143
rib 7-8 span = 44.5", crown measured over 39" = 0.112
rib 8-9 span = 40", crown measured over 39" = 0.104

I acknowledge that crown may be different elsewhere.

I also took some detailed measurements of height and depth of bridge, board (measured right next to the bridge), and frame height at aliquots (or hitch pins in low tenor) :

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/189kOV5DoWgPao57A7JxmRNJtIDQIo8hf/view?usp=sharing[/img]

I have marked shimmed notes. They DO align with low downbearing points. To be further noted is inversion around the upper treble strut - where the bridge is low and the frame high. The bridge height relative to frame is low due to BOTH a dip in the underlying board, and a dip in the bridge depth. Notes in this area are a definitely a little weak, but not used that much so I have not bother attempting shim on these. The bridge sits nice and high in the last octave, which I believe is by design, and rings like a bell. Perhaps the dip in the board height is indicative of a board issue, although the bridge is dropping away from peak of the crown in middle of the board (across the line of the ribs).

Regarding the determination of downbearing, I think we have a terminology issue here. In my mind, downbearing = downward force exerted by a string on the bridge, is absolutely and universally fixed for a given string tension and angle of the string either side of bridge. This can ONLY be measured when the board is loaded, since only THEN do we know the angles (tension of a given string weight, length and tuned frequency is fixed)

If all boards were engineered and built for a given make and model of piano with equal stiffness and crown, then health of a board should indeed be easily determined by measuring angles subtended by the strings at the bridge. Given that boards are made from organic material that is not uniform, is not engineered, and subject to variable environmental stress and ageing/fatigue over its life, I can surely appreciate that degree of down bearing is not a universal measure of the health of a board. Your ears are the ultimate judge of that - if it sounds good, its fine. That said, there MUST be positive bearing on the bridge. Negative downbearing is surely a universal problem.

Seeing the board unloaded may indeed give the best view of the uniformity of the crown, but technically speaking, you still can't know what is the right height to set the soundboard - leading to the final downbearing result - unless you have :
- the manufacturers specifications for stiffness of the board, including along the length of the board if a single measurement in one place is insufficient
- manufacturers specification for optimum unloaded height as a function of stiffness
- measured stiffness of the board,
plus possibly ...
- how the downbearing load varies along the length of the bridge
- how the stiffness of the board varies over the length of the bridge (if it is not uniform)

Given that you probably don't have/know any of these, you probably know the right height to set by experiment, experience and judgement - plus your ears before you pulled it down. When you do that, I am guessing that there is still risk in this, given that there is no way of adjustment/optimisation after installation..

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Re: Steinway L 1925 with sustain problems [Re: jsilva] #2888905
09/10/19 09:48 AM
09/10/19 09:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Melbourne, Australia
P
PianissimoMe Offline OP
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PianissimoMe  Offline OP
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P

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by jsilva
I would second your comments but regarding my former 1925 Steinway L. I wonder if there was something specific about that year for that model. I rarely played a new Steinway I thought had as warm and rich of a sound.


Well its good to know that I am not dreaming here. I was wondering if local restorers were not up to scratch. Why did you get rid of your "former" model L. 1925 WAS the first year of manufacture of model L - was it not?

Re: Steinway L 1925 with sustain problems [Re: PianissimoMe] #2889106
09/10/19 08:09 PM
09/10/19 08:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 234
PA
J
jsilva Offline
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jsilva  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 234
PA
Originally Posted by PianissimoMe
Well its good to know that I am not dreaming here. I was wondering if local restorers were not up to scratch. Why did you get rid of your "former" model L. 1925 WAS the first year of manufacture of model L - was it not?


Because I wanted a bigger piano. I took a risk on a moderately decent sounding M&H BB because it was relatively cheap (it didn’t sound bad but certainly didn’t sound as good as my L). I replaced the hammers/shanks/flanges and bass strings, and did a lot of regulation and careful voicing work and it sounds and plays better than my L ever did. I still visit my former L since I know the person who bought it from me—continued tunings and servicing was part of the deal, and I certainly don’t mind since it has sentimental value to me.

I’m not sure when they started making the L but I think it was a little before 1925.

Re: Steinway L 1925 with sustain problems [Re: PianissimoMe] #2889205
09/11/19 08:11 AM
09/11/19 08:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,542
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,542
New Hampshire
Pretty sure it was 1923.

Official SS book lists one from 1923-1927. Then implies (but does not state) a change from 1927-2005. Maybe it was just a name change from Baby grand to Living Room grand. Also states that the lowest 8 serial numbers were called L II.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 09/11/19 08:19 AM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Steinway L 1925 with sustain problems [Re: PianissimoMe] #2889857
09/13/19 09:26 AM
09/13/19 09:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Melbourne, Australia
P
PianissimoMe Offline OP
Full Member
PianissimoMe  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 21
Melbourne, Australia
Blue book also confirms 1923, first one = serial nr 219,684. Mine is 229774.

Re: Steinway L 1925 with sustain problems [Re: PianissimoMe] #2889899
09/13/19 10:21 AM
09/13/19 10:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,272
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,272
Seattle, WA USA
I do think if you were to try to market your piano with these modifications, savvy buyers would not accept seeing metal shims under the strings.


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According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
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