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New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
#2889047 09/10/19 05:24 PM
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This is a re do on a topic placed here some years ago. I've been, since 4-2010, mostly self taught here in my dotage but had 5 years of lessons in my youth. A lot of this self taught has been supplemented with mind/body aspects and I've made some amazing insights tho its quite possible I've been reinventing the wheel. This has led to outstanding progress in the face of insufficient practice. So my current technique status largely features mind/body aspects. Then I took a glance at "New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere" (google for a download) and this seems to have similar info along the lines I am using. But I at first put it aside due to tough reading. But I then decided to have another go at it. I found I could make good progress if I didn't linger on the rarely used words, nor tried to ponder at length, things I didn't understand. I'm only on p. 28 but suspect if I continue wading thru it, I will find info of great value.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2889190 09/11/19 06:55 AM
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Basically he says let your fingers choose the fingering i.e. on the hoof.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2889472 09/12/19 12:12 PM
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Instead of getting involved with the book alluded to in the OP, you may wish to first go to pps 27 and 260 of "A DISSERTATION
SUBMITTED TO THE GRADUATE COLLEGE of the University of Oklahoma
in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the
degree of
Doctor of Philosophy" in the link below. You may find it to be much clearer and more concise. However, it is probably also be true that to truly get value from the content, you need to read the book. Please be advised that I haven't had the time to really get into this myself.
https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/1099/3237529.PDF?sequence=1

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2889506 09/12/19 01:39 PM
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I believe that I understand what Bonpensiere is trying to say. Physiologically, it is true. Your body already knows how to activate your muscles to perform a given task -- IF you "tell it" by using your mind, exactly what the end result of the task should be.

I came to that conclusion while trying to teach myself how to play golf (resulting in going from a "high 80s" player to "low 70s" over the course of 10 years). I have taught the golf method with good success.

You don't have to think about the action of walking. As an adult, you just "tell yourself" where you want to end up and your body knows which muscles to move and in what order

The difficulty with using this method in playing the piano is thinking about the correct "goal." If you can truly imagine the sound you want to create and your mind can use that as a goal, then I believe that the method would work.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2889656 09/12/19 08:35 PM
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I'm amazed!! I got to an exercise on p.45 of the book, and was able to do it 2 out 4 tries. I do think my Alexander Technique gives me an advantage to release physio kinetics.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2889719 09/12/19 10:54 PM
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This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing this!

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2889746 09/13/19 12:50 AM
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Beyond p.45, up to p.61, its hard for me to know what its about. Maybe this is the best one can expect given that the book is a collection of Luigi's notes put together by his wife after he died.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2892549 09/21/19 04:45 AM
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Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
Iaroslav Vasiliev #2892612 09/21/19 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev


Looking through the Chapter Headings looks interesting. I am going to read it as well.



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Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
chopin_r_us #2892654 09/21/19 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Basically he says let your fingers choose the fingering i.e. on the hoof.

On this point, I have to say Rafael Joseffy's fingerings are almost always better than my own, and there is no way I can ever come up with anything like it myself.


Liszt Piano Concerto No. 1
Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
chopin_r_us #2892704 09/21/19 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Basically he says let your fingers choose the fingering i.e. on the hoof.
Occasionally I find a good or better fingering that way but, in general, fingering is much more complex, and I have to carefully work out the best fingerings on many passages. When my fingers choose a really good fingering right away I still write it in the score.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
vmishka #2892709 09/21/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vmishka
You don't have to think about the action of walking. As an adult, you just "tell yourself" where you want to end up and your body knows which muscles to move and in what order
But toddlers have to practice walking a lot before they are successful. More importantly, walking is always the same procedure. I think the fingering equivalent of walking would be playing the same few notes over and over.

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
newport #2892710 09/21/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vmishka
On this point, I have to say Rafael Joseffy's fingerings are almost always better than my own, and there is no way I can ever come up with anything like it myself.
Of course.

If finding excellent fingering was so obvious, there wouldn't be the endless array of fingered editions for the most advanced repertoire because surely pianists who can play that repertoire would easily be able find the best fingering by themselves.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/21/19 01:41 PM.
Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
pianoloverus #2893748 09/24/19 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by vmishka
On this point, I have to say Rafael Joseffy's fingerings are almost always better than my own, and there is no way I can ever come up with anything like it myself.
Of course.

If finding excellent fingering was so obvious, there wouldn't be the endless array of fingered editions for the most advanced repertoire because surely pianists who can play that repertoire would easily be able find the best fingering by themselves.

While there's certainly nothing questionable about the logic of your explanation, Pianoloverus, I'd suggest there's a more humdrum, entirely commercial explanation for the multitude of differently fingered editions of such works. Namely, most publishers intending to issue their own edition of the said want it to include fingering, and have to commission a pianist of their own choosing for providing it. Plain and simple.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

https://understanding-piano-technique.com/ocportal
Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2893755 09/24/19 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by attaboy
Beyond p.45, up to p.61, its hard for me to know what its about. Maybe this is the best one can expect given that the book is a collection of Luigi's notes put together by his wife after he died.


Speaking for myself, as a staunch admirer of Bonpensiere's unique and fundamentally important work, as well as a scientific researcher specializing in the practical use of musical imagery, I'd be greatly interested if you'd care to share some of the aspects puzzling you in the said chapters. I'll be more than glad to offer whatever interpretations of their content I can suggest,

Last edited by Scordatura; 09/24/19 04:29 PM.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

https://understanding-piano-technique.com/ocportal
Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2893765 09/24/19 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by attaboy
Instead of getting involved with the book alluded to in the OP, you may wish to first go to pps 27 and 260 of "A DISSERTATION
SUBMITTED TO THE GRADUATE COLLEGE of the University of Oklahoma
in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the
degree of
Doctor of Philosophy" in the link below. You may find it to be much clearer and more concise. However, it is probably also be true that to truly get value from the content, you need to read the book. Please be advised that I haven't had the time to really get into this myself.
https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/1099/3237529.PDF?sequence=1

Many thanks for the link, Attaboy. I didn't know this particular dissertation and it's certainly very valuable. Doctoral dissertations seem to make up a major proportion of the scientific research literature on musician's use of musical imagery, but their existence is difficult to discover by comparison with that published in journals and text-books, and often depends entirely on personal tip-offs offered by similarly interested others like yourself. And not uncommonly their lists of referenced publications include other lesser known research of great value. Much indebted to you!


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

https://understanding-piano-technique.com/ocportal
Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2893936 09/25/19 04:51 AM
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Can't say I found it that valuable. A quick read of her summaries of some of the 'influential authors' shows only a shallow understanding. PhD's are suppose to focus in on some fine point in the area of study, this is just some vast survey. Better to just read the books yourself (I have).

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2893942 09/25/19 05:09 AM
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Actually 'vast' is an exaggeration - 15 authors is a drop in the ocean. By the way, anyone read Kosnick?

Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
chopin_r_us #2894898 09/27/19 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Can't say I found it that valuable. A quick read of her summaries of some of the 'influential authors' shows only a shallow understanding. PhD's are suppose to focus in on some fine point in the area of study, this is just some vast survey. Better to just read the books yourself (I have).


Your suppostion about the required nature and substance of PhD dissertations is news to me - they can be on any depth of focus the student's supervisor deems worth investigating, and the student's PhD proposal then has to be formally approved by a departmental professor before proceeding. I'd certainly agree that the dissertation in question isn't especially valuable when it comes to offering detailed description of Bonpensiere's work, or indeed any of her 14 other referenced authors individually. But I think, as a survey and commentary, the dissertation taken overall is valuable for readers relatively unacquainted with the field of piano pedagogy generally and prominent differences in methodology it encompasses, and still feeling their way into the field. Which, I well know, excludes you!

Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
By the way, anyone read Kosnick?


I take it you are referring to Kosnick (1927) Lebenssteigerung : ein neuer Weg zur Heilung und zur Lösung technischer Probleme des Instrumentalspieles und des Gesanges : zugleich die Begründung des Gesetzes der synthetischen Anatomie ?

Regrettably I've never been able to track the work down. I'd be really grateful if you could offer any assistance on accessing it. Was it ever translated into English?

Are you conversant with the scientific research-literature on musical and sports-related imagery? - a fast-flourishing field since the 1990s, though its theoretic roots go back to the first quarter of the 19th Century. Tragic that piano-teachers then and now never knew of its existence.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

https://understanding-piano-technique.com/ocportal
Re: New pathways to Piano Technique by Luigi Bonpensiere
attaboy #2895202 09/28/19 01:37 PM
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My understanding is that PhD's are suppose to expand the field. In that sense they are of help to specialists. More a poor man's Gerig here!

By Kosnick (a pupil of Busoni - which says a lot) I meant Universelle Technik. Sadly only in German and my attempts to get it translated have failed. Todd and Sweigard reference him. As far a I'm aware he was
doing Ideo-Kenetics years before Bonpensere calling it psycho-organics.

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