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This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
#2889197 09/11/19 07:44 AM
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Behold Schoenberg's Op. 11 N. 3.

[Linked Image]

I need to understand this fully in order to convert it to Klavarskribo for my upcoming free online course on the alternative notation. The music is in 6/8, so for simplicity I'm pretending that it's in 3/4, so that eighth notes are worth half a beat, which is what I'm used to. This way, the notes have to sum up to 3 beats. Bar number 4 sums up to 3 beats just fine, but I've counted bar number 5 on both clefs several times and it equals 2.5 beats (or 5 beats for 6/8):

[Linked Image]

I can only conclude that the missing half beat comes from the two 16th notes that are on the top clef but whose stems merge with notes in the bottom clef. This would mean that time can be shared between two staves, which is something that was never explained to me.

Thanks for your insight.


Last edited by Nantes; 09/11/19 07:52 AM.
Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889200 09/11/19 07:55 AM
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you have to play/count the Bb chords in the right hand too. Those figures alternate between the hands.

Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889204 09/11/19 08:09 AM
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first octave is 1/8

then 1 1/16 rest and 3 1/16 note chords = 2/8

then 2 1/16 note chords = 1/8

then 1 1/4 note chord = 2/8

1 + 2 + 1 + 2 = 6

[Linked Image]

Considering these chords change to treble and bass clef at the same time they could all be written on one stave. And that would make things more obvious but it's been done like this to show which to play with your right hand and which to play with your left hand

Last edited by WTM; 09/11/19 08:17 AM.

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Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
WTM #2889207 09/11/19 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WTM
then 1 1/16 rest and 3 1/16 note chords = 2/8


Should I hold the first 1/16 note chord while I play the second one in the top clef, or release it (effectively putting a virtual 1/16 rest in the bottom clef between the first and third 1/16 note chords)? My intuition tells me it's the second case.

Last edited by Nantes; 09/11/19 08:17 AM.
Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889211 09/11/19 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nantes
Originally Posted by WTM
then 1 1/16 rest and 3 1/16 note chords = 2/8


Should I hold the first 1/16 note chord while I play the second one in the top clef, or release it (effectively putting a virtual 1/16 rest in the bottom clef between the first and third 1/16 note chords)? My intuition tells me it's the second case.

I don't know the piece or the tempo, the only issue with that is you've got 2 chords overlapping. I'd play it and listen, if it sounds really muddy I'd play them detached, there's no indication of legato, is there any pedal markings? I also wouldn't hold them for longer than indicated and so effectively there is a rest between the 2 left hand chords (the ones on the bottom stave).


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Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889230 09/11/19 10:45 AM
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Is there no difference in klavarskribo between 6/8 and 3/4?

Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889232 09/11/19 10:47 AM
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I see this: It is a written in ritardando, and also the direction given says so.

[img]https://imgur.com/a/jLJaZaC[/img]

Last edited by prenex; 09/11/19 10:49 AM.
Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889249 09/11/19 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Nantes
Originally Posted by WTM
then 1 1/16 rest and 3 1/16 note chords = 2/8


Should I hold the first 1/16 note chord while I play the second one in the top clef, or release it (effectively putting a virtual 1/16 rest in the bottom clef between the first and third 1/16 note chords)? My intuition tells me it's the second case.


The voices are poorly notated. There are rests that are missing that should be indicated. What edition is that ? But to answer your question you release each 16. Those are to be played in sequence. The simple way to read it is that the upper voice plays the first 8th and then a series of chords in 16th ( right hand then left hand in sequence) and finally the last 2 chords on quarters together.

Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Eric399 #2889255 09/11/19 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by prenex
I see this: It is a written in ritardando, and also the direction given says so.

[img]https://imgur.com/a/jLJaZaC[/img]


As far as I know, a triplet means you have 3 notes but they are counted as 2 notes for timekeeping purposes. If those notes are to be triplets as you suggest, there will be half a beat (3/4) or one beat (5/8) missing and we're back to the original problem.

Originally Posted by Eric399
Is there no difference in klavarskribo between 6/8 and 3/4?


Yes there is:

[Linked Image]

Interestingly, the Klavarscript software only adds a single horizontal dashed line for the empty 6/8 bar (falling on beat number 4), so it looks very much like a 2/4 bar. You can tell the difference once I add some notes, however, because Klavar only joins the stems with a beam when a note falls in between beats (if it were 2/4 the notes are be beamed, while for 6/8 they are not. The 2/4 bar also fits less notes in). The third bar for 3/4 is filled with the TN-equivalent of 16th notes (groups of 4 notes beamed together), while in the third bar of 6/8 they are grouped together as if they were 8th notes (which is to be expected). If you don't understand it I can try to explain it another way.

Last edited by Nantes; 09/11/19 12:18 PM.
Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Nantes #2889367 09/11/19 05:01 PM
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I finished the transcription, here it is if anyone is curious, with the traditional notation again below for reference.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]




Last edited by Nantes; 09/11/19 05:06 PM.
Re: This bar sums up to 5 beats when the music is in 6/8. Help
Eric399 #2895208 09/28/19 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Nantes
[quote=WTM]then 1 1/16 rest and 3 1/16 note chords = 2/8

What edition is that ? But to answer your question you release each 16. Those are to be played in sequence. The simple way to read it is that the upper voice plays the first 8th and then a series of chords in 16th ( right hand then left hand in sequence) and finally the last 2 chords on quarters together.


Sorry, you answered just before I did and I ended up missing your post, I saw it now revisiting this thread. The edition is the one downloaded from the Petrucci free music library. The other edition offered there has some tiny differences, but the timing is displayed just as poorly frown Anyway, you mention first voice, so that must mean there is a second, but I don't see it. How can you tell there is more than one voice?


Originally Posted by Eric399
Is there no difference in klavarskribo between 6/8 and 3/4?


Oops, I realized today that I forgot to convert it back to 6/8 once I was done pretending it was 3/4 for easier transcription! Here is what it looks like with the 6/8 time signature. All that changed really is the number of beat lines (dotted horizontal lines) and how the notes are beamed. I added the rests (V-shaped symbols) on the second measure, but they make it look uglier and are probably not needed, because the pianist will probably be releasing their hand from the chord by the time they play the next chord with the other hand anyway, in order to reach the third chord in time, and so on.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Nantes; 09/28/19 01:47 PM.

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