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Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
johnstaf #2872885 07/26/19 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Yes johnstaf you mentioned that in a hundred postiings ...


Are you suggesting I shouldn't post about my experience?

And, for the 101st time, I never suggested that the pivot was the only factor in the feel of an action, but actions with short pivots cause problems in certain repertoire, I honestly don't know how to make this any simpler.



The "playability" you always mentioned has more to do with the weighting of the keys than with the pivot point. I played DPs with long pivot points, which were much harder to play than the VPC1. There are also DPs with very short pivon pionts, but they are very smooth-running (because they are very light or not weighted at all). Someone who is new to this forum and is looking for help will of course immediately believe your experience and ask for pivot points as long as possible without even experiencing how different the actions can be. It seems like you can measure (through the pivot point) how easy or difficult the action of the DP is. But this is simply not possible! The argumentation that shorter pivot points increase the weight on the inside of the key more than longer pivot points is obvious. But these are very small nuances compared to the over all weighting of the key.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
aphexdisklavier #2872944 07/26/19 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by aphexdisklavier
Yes johnstaf you mentioned that in a hundred postiings ...


Are you suggesting I shouldn't post about my experience?

And, for the 101st time, I never suggested that the pivot was the only factor in the feel of an action, but actions with short pivots cause problems in certain repertoire, I honestly don't know how to make this any simpler.



The "playability" you always mentioned has more to do with the weighting of the keys than with the pivot point. I played DPs with long pivot points, which were much harder to play than the VPC1. There are also DPs with very short pivon pionts, but they are very smooth-running (because they are very light or not weighted at all). Someone who is new to this forum and is looking for help will of course immediately believe your experience and ask for pivot points as long as possible without even experiencing how different the actions can be. It seems like you can measure (through the pivot point) how easy or difficult the action of the DP is. But this is simply not possible! The argumentation that shorter pivot points increase the weight on the inside of the key more than longer pivot points is obvious. But these are very small nuances compared to the over all weighting of the key.




I have to disagree with you on post #2872527, when you say that the longer pivot doesn't make any difference at all for you. To me it makes a lot of difference. Even when you play on the lightest keyboards (for example a synth with non weighted action), you can feel such an annoying fatigue when you play near the fallboard, and it's something I can't adapt to.

Last edited by pold; 07/26/19 11:46 AM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2872959 07/26/19 01:15 PM
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I know the answer to all this. GHS is best! smile


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Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2873005 07/26/19 03:47 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtslXIADufM

in the video you can see that his two hands playing very close to the fallboard!!

*Gabriel Iwasaki
I bought the Kawai VPC-1 instead of an upright piano (i dont own any acoustic piano), and dont regret it at all. Actually i am very pleased with the purchase.
For me, what sets it apart is the wooden keys, and the ability to utilise it with ANY music software running on a computer. The keybed is absolutely fantastic. You just have to spend sometime adjusting the software to match the way you play, and after that it is a dream come true*.

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
sorrownightingale #2873266 07/27/19 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sorrownightingale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtslXIADufM

in the video you can see that his two hands playing very close to the fallboard!!

*Gabriel Iwasaki
I bought the Kawai VPC-1 instead of an upright piano (i dont own any acoustic piano), and dont regret it at all. Actually i am very pleased with the purchase.
For me, what sets it apart is the wooden keys, and the ability to utilise it with ANY music software running on a computer. The keybed is absolutely fantastic. You just have to spend sometime adjusting the software to match the way you play, and after that it is a dream come true*.



Absolutely fantastic? The keys only go up and down, you know. If they did backflips or somersaults, that'd be AF. But they don't. Or maybe they do these days; I'm a tad behind the times. . .


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Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
peterws #2873293 07/27/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws


Absolutely fantastic? The keys only go up and down, you know. If they did backflips or somersaults, that'd be AF. But they don't. Or maybe they do these days; I'm a tad behind the times. . .

Don’t the keys actually (partially) rotate (about an axis)? Must get the details right in this thread. crazy

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2873704 07/29/19 06:28 AM
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Don't sleep on the Kawai VPC1!

I finally tried everything - I had to buy the MP11SE and VPC1 to try them alongside my old RD-700GX & borrowed RD-2000. For me the VPC1 kills them all - I wish I tried it a long time ago - but you can't find them anywhere in a store.

I kept reading how old the RM3II is, and how the key is shorter and blah blah blah. Well... for me it's the action I've been looking for for years. The RD700GX I've been using since it came out is a bit heavy and slow rebound (hard to trill). The MP11SE shocked me... light & spongy! I also tried the Kawai CA78 and didn't prefer that one either. The RD-2000 didn't seem too much of an improvement to my RD-700GX.. it almost feels like a cost-reduced version of the PHAII.

For me the VPC1 feels like I'm back in music school on a studio grand. I just love it and couldn't be happier.


Last edited by azone; 07/29/19 06:29 AM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
johnstaf #2888878 09/10/19 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by sorrownightingale
pold...

PHA 50 pivot lenght is 22 cm Do you consider this shorter pivot lenght?
GFII is 24cm
N1,N2,N3 ~23 cm
GF-C ~21,5cm

Grand piano are between 20 and 25cm. Between 22 and 24cm the difference is neliglible for a physical matter


I think the GF-Compact keys are shorter than length given ....



This is the correct length for the Grand Feel Compact. I measured it to be around 8.5 inches which it 21.6cm.

Last edited by MattLee; 09/10/19 08:38 AM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2889036 09/10/19 04:45 PM
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Thanks for the correction. thumb

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2889094 09/10/19 07:16 PM
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Oops. I did another measurement to be sure. It's around 8.25in. Which is around 21cm.

I'm using the super accurate method of shoving a ruler under the felt at the fallboard.

Last edited by MattLee; 09/10/19 07:21 PM.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2889406 09/12/19 09:39 AM
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I am not sure if I posted on this before ,I have an MP11 and an Rd 2000 ,the mp11 is a whole lot more nicer piano action than the rd 2000 , the rd 2000 is a nice action but its a hybrid action and roland even had that written somewhere , can't remember , the rd 800 has a nicer piano action than the rd 2000 in my testing , but the Kawai action is superior to both .

Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
pianomike #2889411 09/12/19 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pianomike
I am not sure if I posted on this before ,I have an MP11 and an Rd 2000 ,the mp11 is a whole lot more nicer piano action than the rd 2000 , the rd 2000 is a nice action but its a hybrid action and roland even had that written somewhere , can't remember , the rd 800 has a nicer piano action than the rd 2000 in my testing , but the Kawai action is superior to both .

The Roland RD2000 uses the PHA-50 action. The PHA-50 is not a hybrid action. Roland doesn't have any hybrid actions. The Roland V-Piano's "PHA III Ivory Feel keyboard action" is not a hybrid action. Even the one that Roland calls the "Hybrid Grand keyboard" action is not a hybrid action.

The Roland RD800 uses the PHA-4 Concert action.


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Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2889543 09/12/19 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Randompianist2
Hello,


Which one do you guys think it’s the closer keyboard to a Grand Piano ?

I feel the Kawai Grand Feel II touch a bit soft / spongy feeling

Thanks for your reviews. Currently hesitating between CA78 and HP704.


These are two different categories of keybed. PHA-50 is in the same category as Responsive Hammer III action in Kawai. I found RHIII action closer to a Kawai Grand piano action. I compared RD-2000 and MP7SE with a Kawai grand side by side.

I assume Kawai and Yamaha will always make keybeds far better than Roland. That's because they both manufacture pianos as well. Unfortunately, Yamaha is parsimonious in deploying better material, technology, and mechanics in its instruments.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2889565 09/12/19 04:15 PM
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“I assume Kawai and Yamaha will always make keybeds far better than Roland. ”

A digital (folded) keyboard is quite different from an acoustic keyboard. I don’t think Yamaha or Kawai have a great superiority in digital keyboard from their competencies in making acoustic pianos.

All of them have to measure the behaviour of an acoustic piano action, and design a digital which is closer and closer by calculus, prototyping, etc. I don’t think the R&D needed for these tasks is reduced a lot when making acoustic pianos.


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Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Frédéric L #2889588 09/12/19 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
“I assume Kawai and Yamaha will always make keybeds far better than Roland. ”

A digital (folded) keyboard is quite different from an acoustic keyboard. I don’t think Yamaha or Kawai have a great superiority in digital keyboard from their competencies in making acoustic pianos.

All of them have to measure the behaviour of an acoustic piano action, and design a digital which is closer and closer by calculus, prototyping, etc. I don’t think the R&D needed for these tasks is reduced a lot when making acoustic pianos.


True. RHIII and PHA-50 are both folding and in the same class (PHA-50 is also plastic with matchstick thick wood pieces on the sides). My assumption is that the action/mechanics of a key usually has a response curve. Yamaha and Kawai simulate their own key actions. Roland, I have no clue.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Abdol #2889639 09/12/19 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol

I assume Kawai and Yamaha will always make keybeds far better than Roland.


The opinions of pianists here vary so much that I simply can't accept this. Roland by all accounts makes first class digital piano actions that are pound for pound competitive with the best that any other manufacture has. Casio, which doesn't make any acoustic pianos, also seems to have a fine, high-end digital action in their GP series.

IMO, the pedigree of "makes real acoustic pianos" has no real bearing on how good an action is. Yamaha's decades-old GHS for instance, is really not that great at all within its class.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Gombessa #2889921 09/13/19 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

The opinions of pianists here vary so much that I simply can't accept this. Roland by all accounts makes first class digital piano actions that are pound for pound competitive with the best that any other manufacture has. Casio, which doesn't make any acoustic pianos, also seems to have a fine, high-end digital action in their GP series.

IMO, the pedigree of "makes real acoustic pianos" has no real bearing on how good an action is. Yamaha's decades-old GHS for instance, is really not that great at all within its class.


We should compare potatoes with potatoes. GHS is not in the same league. I didn't say Roland's action is bad. Action is pretty much like the sound of an instrument, subjective. To some or many, PHA-50 of Roland has an action which feels really nice but to me, it does not physically exist (pretty much the same story goes to V-Piano sound engine).

I'm sure Yamaha and Kawai simulate their own instruments! I would not invest in Roland for piano sound/action. It's not authentic (personal opinion).

Last edited by Abdol; 09/13/19 11:10 AM.

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Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Randompianist2 #2889956 09/13/19 12:23 PM
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Action is so subjective. I am one that likes the PHA-50 action. I didn't like the PHA-III action from Roland. So has been said many times on this forum. Go check out the pianos for yourself. What I like and what you like most likely will be different smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Most realistic : PHA-50 vs GFII Keys
Gombessa #2890021 09/13/19 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Abdol

I assume Kawai and Yamaha will always make keybeds far better than Roland.


The opinions of pianists here vary so much that I simply can't accept this. Roland by all accounts makes first class digital piano actions that are pound for pound competitive with the best that any other manufacture has. Casio, which doesn't make any acoustic pianos, also seems to have a fine, high-end digital action in their GP series.

IMO, the pedigree of "makes real acoustic pianos" has no real bearing on how good an action is. Yamaha's decades-old GHS for instance, is really not that great at all within its class.


I've played on acoustics with worse actions than GHS. TBH, an entry level modern Kawai or Yamaha doesn't feel much different from some of the digital actions on offer when you discount the sound production, but of course, the sound generated is different in attack and sustain and would make for a most interesting velocity curve, should one of the more enlightened here care to chip in.

I reckon the manufacturers build their digitals to customer expectations, and not as an acoustic feel/sound alike; nonetheless the difference in action isn't as great as we seem to think, here.

Indeed, some acoustics don't even have "Ivory Feel"!! Can you Adam and Eve it?

Last edited by peterws; 09/13/19 03:13 PM.

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