|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
73 members (AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, 15 invisible),
2,241
guests, and
453
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,393
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,393 |
That must depend on where you are - here, there is very little in the way of discounting of pianos.
Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,854
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,854 |
Here we go again! Because Yamaha and Kawai have been locked in serious competition making and selling different levels of both acoustic, digital, hybrid, and Transacoustic uprights and grand pianos over many years there’s more choices to try out. It all depends on what exactly the buyer wants and how much they want to spend. Because you choose a different brand than I choose, it doesn’t make your brand better than the brand I chose. It means the brand you chose fit your budget, size requirements and your musical tastes more. PERIOD. Bashing a competing brand because you didn’t choose it seems completely silly in my book. I think the Honda Toyota analogy is fair. Or maybe Ford F-150 to Chevy Silverado to Ram 1500 is also a fair analogy. We’ve had both Ford and Chevy trucks over the years for pulling trailers. Each one was different in how it did the job but they all got the job done. The whole “I got a better piano than you because I bought brand X†just speaks that you’re not really confident in your own choice and need to bring down my confidence in my choice. This thread could be useful to someone shopping for a piano if it stayed with the different features of each brand and how it’s beneficial for the buyer. My 2 cents.
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9,793
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 9,793 |
Or maybe Ford F-150 to Chevy Silverado to Ram 1500 is also a fair analogy. Uh oh... Just kidding. Good post (IMO).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676 |
In Vacouver BC in 2017 the given lowest price in the store was $11,300CAD for a U1.When we bought one of these new models I received an "institutional discount " so the selling price was $9,300CAD which was what we paid. The street price of a U3 was $16,700.(before any discount) The given price of $11,300 had already been discounted but not with the institutional discount. The Kawai prices for the K300 and K500 were far more generous with thier discount prices.
Last edited by Lady Bird; 09/07/19 10:34 AM. Reason: Missing word
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676 |
Yamaha and Kawai are not as similar as many people think, an analogy to cars (Honda/Toyota) is plain silly and of no use for someone interested in music and pianos. Quality control and stability for both brands are unquestionable and perhaps the best in the industry, rather than that these are two very different companies and pianos. Today any Kawai model is better to its equivalent piano made by Yamaha regardless of the preference of anybody; ultimately the choice of a person can be highly subjective. What has made Kawai a superior product to Yamaha is the consistent curve of development implemented by Kawai as a piano manufacturer, there is not one piano maker currently that had invested in constant development of their products for as long as Kawai. If we compare the K-25 to the K-3 the improvement is substantial, comparing the K-3 to the K-300 the improvements are even greater than the transition from the K-25 to the K-3. Another item that always puzzles me is that looking at the number of Yamaha uprights made and taking into consideration how basic they are built, the manufacturing cost of U1 should be lower than the equivalent Kawai. I did not feel this dramatic improvement in Kawai in compairing an upright (49")from 1985 to the K300 of today.I recently bought a 1985 Kawai model upright.I have also recently tried the K300 in the dealer.The tone of my 1985 model is very mellow(I know this is my own tast)compaired to the modern day K300.I am sorry but I do not find anything lacking in the action of the 1985 piano compared to the K300 with the now newer action.Perhaps they mean the action is tougher ?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 4,460
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 4,460 |
By not using wood, Kawai claims the action will be more resilient to changes in humidity. I have also heard claims that action parts are stiffer and thus efficient and transferring force from the player to hammer. I think they are splitting hairs. Moreover, we have data about the longevity of wooden actions with the record of vintage pianos. I think both companies make excellent instruments. Differences in personal taste in sound rendition and action are more important than any technical details that may be articulated.
Reading Piano World with Javascript turned off (no logins, no ads, fast response times). I will receive PMs.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 412
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 412 |
Yamaha and Kawai are both excellent. I did notice this little snippet from the brand profile section of the PianoBuyer website: “Both Yamaha’s quality control and its warranty and technical service are legendary in the piano business. They are the standard against which every other company is measured.†https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/yamaha/
Yamaha N1X, P-515. Genelec 8331 monitors and 7350 sub. VI’s: Garritan CFX, VSL Bösendorfer Upright, and VSL Blüthner 1895. Pianoteq.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 4,460
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 4,460 |
A tale of two university music dept practice room pianos, early-to-mid 1980’s:
Dept 1 is on a tight budget and just keeps servicing the variety of vintage pianos they have. Most of the time they just require tuning.
Dept 2 purchased a fleet of Yamaha uprights so all practice rooms have the same uniformly voiced and regulated instruments. The pianos age out of warranty and start falling apart. The breadth of issues is wide enough that they all just need to be replaced. These were 1970’s instruments, replaced within about 12 years of purchase.
Reading Piano World with Javascript turned off (no logins, no ads, fast response times). I will receive PMs.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 446
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 446 |
The 1970's Yamaha uprights were built at the Everett plant in Michigan. They were not very good pianos. Nothing like what came out of Japan.
Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,236
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,236 |
A tale of two university music dept practice room pianos, early-to-mid 1980’s:
Dept 1 is on a tight budget and just keeps servicing the variety of vintage pianos they have. Most of the time they just require tuning.
Dept 2 purchased a fleet of Yamaha uprights so all practice rooms have the same uniformly voiced and regulated instruments. The pianos age out of warranty and start falling apart. The breadth of issues is wide enough that they all just need to be replaced. These were 1970’s instruments, replaced within about 12 years of purchase. Interesting. My biggest issue is that the Yamaha pianos we see in University settings hold up too well. Now if "Dept. 2" purchased pianos that were not built for conservatory use, like the LU-11, M22, or an M300 series, that would not have been the right move. Shame on the organization that sold them, but also shame on the musicians that bought them, too.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 4,460
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 4,460 |
I’m sure that whoever made the decision to move forward with the purchase was relying heavily on the recommendation of Yamaha and/or a Yamaha dealer regarding the robustness of the pianos. Steinways from the 1970’s era of CBS ownership were not exactly great either. But the dept with the mix-mash of vintage uprights and grands in their practice rooms got many decades of service out of them until they eventually were replaced.
Reading Piano World with Javascript turned off (no logins, no ads, fast response times). I will receive PMs.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,372
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,372 |
It's been a long time since I've played a new Kawai GX or new Yamaha CX so this comment doesn't apply to current models.
I always felt that while the Kawai had a warmer sound which I like, they didn't sing as well in the critical octave as Yamaha do. Yamaha could sound a bit ugly if they got too bright (can't EVERY piano though?). Over all I always preferred the Yamaha.
That refers only to their mid-range pianos.
I did get to try a new Shigeru Kawai SK6 and I felt in many ways it could be a direct competitor to a Hamburg B, but a different kind of flavour of tone of course.
Ultimately, I think it's personal preference. One isn't better than the other.
YAMAHA Artist
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,395
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,395 |
LOL, while you folks discuss your subjective sound interpretations, you completely miss the main criteria of what is best! Both Yamaha and Kawai are for-profit entities. Therefore, the bigger their piano sales are, the better their pianos are! Just kidding, of course.
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato) Vlad, Adult beginner
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 212
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 212 |
Maybe 30+ years ago I heard the story of how Mr. Kawai started in the business working as an apprentice to Mr. Yamaha who lived in the same town in Japan. You can read the story in wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawai_Musical_InstrumentsHowever, when I went to the Kawai website, the story was also told, slightly differently, with Mr. Kawai working as an apprentice to an unnamed man. http://www.kawai-global.com/brand/legacy/
Boesendorfer 225 (1985) Yamaha S400E (predecessor to CF4) Disklavier (1992)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,836
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,836 |
Yes, the pedigree of these two manufacturers are of the same origin. Torakusu Yamaha built the first Japanese upright in 1900 and soon brought on his close neighbor Koichi Kawai as an apprentice. For many years they worked together designing pianos for Nippon Gakki Company (later named the Yamaha Corp following Torakusu's death) however in the 1920's the piano industry weakened in Japan and Yamaha began to diversify it's product lines outside of pianos. As new management took over Yamaha, Koichi Kawai decided to build his own company continuing to dedicate his efforts solely to the building of fine pianos at the Kawai Musical Instrument Factory. Because Yamaha had diversified it's manufacturing product lines they became experts in metallurgy and during WWII became part of the war effort building machinery including fuel tanks for the Japanese armies. The rebuilding of Japan following WWII brought other opportunities for Yamaha corporation starting with the need for cheap transport so they began to build motorcycles and in decades to follow car engines, marine engines, and much later home electronics and even archery equipment among other things. But Yamaha never forgot its roots and continued to build fine pianos and other acoustical instruments throughout its history.
Koichi Kawai's son Shigeru Kawai continued to expand Kawai's efforts to build it's piano building facilities and was later succeeded by his son Hirotaka Kawai in 1989 who integrated advanced robotics into the manufacturing process and continued to revolutionize the piano introducing newer technologies including the use of composites in the Kawai action. What is clear is that Kawai stayed focused on doing one thing, and doing one thing well- building pianos. This streamlined Kawai's business model in my opinion and kept overhead relatively low compared to Yamaha which grew to be more of a "super" corporation.
So although we see two piano companies with practically the same origins and same philosophy for building high quality pianos, one of them Kawai is able to offer better discounts and more competitive pricing because it is more focused and streamlined but at the same time more innovative and able to introduce newer technologies quicker because it's engineers have to go through less red tape. Yamaha, being such a large corporation with broad product lines can build quality pianos and sell them at a higher price than Kawai because it is such an established brand name through its diversified product line and secondly because it has larger overhead costs being such a large company. The minus of this is that as with all large companies its innovations come slower and newer designs take longer to conceive.
So what does this mean for the consumer? In my opinion I think in a Yamaha you are buying a piano with stronger brand name recognition and with that may come a little more prestige but it comes at a price. With a Kawai you get an equally quality piano oftentimes at a better value/price and with a tradition of being the at cutting edge of piano design. In the end though, you can't go wrong with either one.
Last edited by Jethro; 09/10/19 01:21 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,836
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,836 |
That by then unnamed "obscure" medical equipment repairman named on the Kawai website was Torakusu Yamaha. He worked as a medical equipment repairman before building what would become the Yamaha Corporation. He was so impressed by Koichi Kawai's innovativeness as a young man (who built that pedal powered cart by himself) that he hired him as an apprentice. Koichi Kawai was the Steve Jobs of the Yamaha Corporation. He was the innovator and that innovative spirit continued throughout the history of Kawai Pianos. I guess you can say Kawai is more like Apple- the innovative little company that grew and Yamaha was Microsoft. The big company that just kept getting bigger.
Last edited by Jethro; 09/10/19 01:39 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,998
5000 Post Club Member
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,998 |
To be honest, Jethro, you sound like you just regurgitated the entire Kawai promotional manual. There should be a disclaimer of "in my opinion" and "I say this as an unabashed fan and owner of Kawai pianos" in your post. There is no evidence to back up most of the assertions you make. I won't bother thrashing through them all with you, but I will say that dealers like Rich Galassini have chosen to stock Yamaha pianos on the basis of their excellence as musical instruments. I'm sure he could have just as easily chosen to represent Kawai if he'd wanted to. There is no inherent superiority to Kawai instruments - despite all the prognostications of increased longevity from advanced materials. Yamaha pianos are renowned for their stability and consistency in institutional settings. I'd call that a draw. In the end, it comes down to personal taste. I think anybody looking at these two brands should simply forget all the specs and marketing talk and buy the one they like more.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 10
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 10 |
For me both instruments sound vastly different so just price is not the decision maker anyways here. The only area where Yamaha is probably really ahead objectively is their SH2 silent system. The rest is taste and anecdotal evidence.
Last edited by StefVR; 09/10/19 06:59 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,836
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,836 |
To be honest, Jethro, you sound like you just regurgitated the entire Kawai promotional manual. There should be a disclaimer of "in my opinion" and "I say this as an unabashed fan and owner of Kawai pianos" in your post. There is no evidence to back up most of the assertions you make. I won't bother thrashing through them all with you, but I will say that dealers like Rich Galassini have chosen to stock Yamaha pianos on the basis of their excellence as musical instruments. I'm sure he could have just as easily chosen to represent Kawai if he'd wanted to. There is no inherent superiority to Kawai instruments - despite all the prognostications of increased longevity from advanced materials. Yamaha pianos are renowned for their stability and consistency in institutional settings. I'd call that a draw. In the end, it comes down to personal taste. I think anybody looking at these two brands should simply forget all the specs and marketing talk and buy the one they like more. I don't know how you could read that post as any kind of knock on Yamaha pianos. I love them just as much as the Kawai just tended to get a better deal on my Kawai(s). That's all. And yes I did say it was my opinion on anything that was my opinion. You think you could get through any post without someone trying to find a reason to be critical of another poster... jeez. Historically I have found that I could get a much better deal through rebates and dealer negotiation on a Kawai than I can on a Yamaha. Maybe that has changed, but that has been my experience throughout the years and I have heard the same from many others in the past.
Last edited by Jethro; 09/10/19 07:46 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,924
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,924 |
Also, ando, did you not notice what Jethro said at the end of his post? In the end though, you can't go wrong with either one. In any case, thanks for your posts Jethro, I enjoyed reading about all that history. And it makes a lot of sense, or rather it explains a lot about the two companies. Personally, I just find the whole debate super interesting because 1) I lived in Japan for more than 10 years, during which time I had the chance to play a lot of both Kawai and Yamaha pianos, 2) although I generally like the way Kawai pianos sound, for whatever reason, I have never liked their touch/action, and 3) I've owned two acoustic Yamahas and 3 digital Yamaha pianos. So hearing other people's impressions, reading about the history etc. is just fascinating.
Started piano June 1999. Proud owner of a Yamaha C2
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|