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My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
#2887941 09/07/19 04:11 PM
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As I mentioned in other threads, I don't like the "Normal" velocity curve of my Kawai CN37. To me it's too light in the velocity range 1-35, so it makes impossible to play very softly. The Heavy curve is not enough "heavy" in the first half of the curve, and with the Heavy+ touch it's a little too hard to play fff. So, after much experiments, that's the customized velocity curve I use now on my Kawai CN37:

[Linked Image]

(1) LIGHT+ (2) LIGHT (3) NORMAL
(4) HEAVY (5) HEAVY+ (6) FIXED
(RED) my customized curve!

You can notice my curve is a little heavier than the Heavy+ curve in the very first part (to make it very controllable when you want to play softly), then it slowly becomes like the Heavy curve, but from about the half until the end it begins to move towards the linear one (to make you reach ff and fff without too much effort). I wonder if this is a behavior more similar to that of a good acoustic action.

I tried to record my (horrible) playing of Fur Elise with the new touch curve, but each time I play the piano to record the piece I make some mistakes that I don't make when I'm not recording. It's very unnerving (I tried something like 40-50 times today!), so at the end I uploaded it anyway my last playing. Sorry, I'm a self-taught beginner!

LINK TO THE (horrible) MP3

I tried to play more soft with the left hand, thanks to my customized curve. With the Normal curve, the left hand part sounds always too strong, no matter how much I try to play soft.

What touch curve do you use on your DPs?

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Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2887952 09/07/19 04:49 PM
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Your playing is very good. I wish I had that kind of touch.

I do feel your curve produces some oddness to the sound. It is like getting a volume in the middle is hard, between a p and a little above an f. Playing softly and loudly is easier but in between is hard.

I am still in the process of getting the feel of my new piano. I am pretty much settling on the heavy touch curve, but I am finding that it seems to depend on what I am playing or what I am trying to achieve depends on whether I keep key volume off, or apply the HiLo damping or not.

I think I will aim to keep it off except when I am recording a piece where I am still struggling to control dynamics.

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2887967 09/07/19 05:40 PM
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You are much better than me at playing the piano so your kind words are much appreciated.

And you are right on your observations: my curve is a little "risky", because you have to be very careful that after playing a very soft note you don't play a note too much louder than the previous (and you have to be super-focused to avoid this with my customized curve... As you noticed I was not focused enough in all the piece laugh ).
To fix this I can make the curve a little convex _/ in that central linear segment (the longest segment in my curve). This would make the action a little harder, but more gradual... I will try it... wink

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
KevinM #2887970 09/07/19 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
[...]I am pretty much settling on the heavy touch curve, but I am finding that it seems to depend on what I am playing or what I am trying to achieve depends on whether I keep key volume off, or apply the HiLo damping or not.

I think I will aim to keep it off except when I am recording a piece where I am still struggling to control dynamics.
My target is to get the definitive velocity curve that allows me to play more soft or more strong without having to change anything anymore. After all, an acoustic piano has no velocity curves that you can set...

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888004 09/07/19 08:31 PM
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How does one change the velocity curve? I have an NV10 and would be interested in experimenting with this.

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888010 09/07/19 08:47 PM
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Magicpiano,

I use a similar concave velocity curve on my NV-10 with Light+. This lets me hit MIDi velocity 127 for the full range of touch sensitivity, and also cancels out the compressed mid-range from Light+. It works pretty well, and I switch between the NV-10 and acoustics frequently without any major issues at all.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888055 09/08/19 02:15 AM
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I also use a concave curve, but with the NV10 on the light setting.
I find that the NV10 light+ curve has a bump towards higher velocities around velocity 75 to 95 (roughly) and makes control difficult in the 'singing' range.
This might very well be me - but my impression is that the light+ curve on the novus is slightly jumpy and irregular.
In any case, the light setting reaches 124 on a fff blow, so I move the top right point slightly to the left and then make the curve concave so that it responds more or less like my acoustic. This is with VSL Steinway D (without patches) - with other virtual pianos the curve changes slightly.
A screenshot of the curve in Mainstage:

[Linked Image]


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
Snicklefritz #2888064 09/08/19 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
How does one change the velocity curve? I have an NV10 and would be interested in experimenting with this.
The easiest solution is to connect the piano to a computer and use a software that makes you see and change the touch curve (like Pianoteq). If you want to make a customized curve for the internal piano engine it's more complicated... It needs you export a settings file from the digital piano to the computer, edit this file with an hex editor to change all the velocity values for your customized curve and finally import the file on the piano.

I wish they made a way to customize the curve directly on the LCD display. For now you can only select some presets. There is an option to create the customized curve based on your playing, but to me it's too imprecise and aleatory to be useful.

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
Gombessa #2888067 09/08/19 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Magicpiano,

I use a similar concave velocity curve on my NV-10 with Light+. This lets me hit MIDi velocity 127 for the full range of touch sensitivity, and also cancels out the compressed mid-range from Light+. It works pretty well, and I switch between the NV-10 and acoustics frequently without any major issues at all.

So, you use a Light+ settings to make you reach easily the 127 value and then you change this curve with a VST to lower the middle concave part? I would like to see your velocity curve. I think in this process you could lose much resolution.

P.S.1: I think with "concave" you mean "convex". Convex is \_/. Concave is the opposite.

P.S.2: I wonder if the Light+ setting make you hit "all" the 127 values without skip nothing.

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
Erard #2888070 09/08/19 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Erard
I also use a concave curve, but with the NV10 on the light setting.
I find that the NV10 light+ curve has a bump towards higher velocities around velocity 75 to 95 (roughly) and makes control difficult in the 'singing' range.
This might very well be me - but my impression is that the light+ curve on the novus is slightly jumpy and irregular.
In any case, the light setting reaches 124 on a fff blow, so I move the top right point slightly to the left and then make the curve concave so that it responds more or less like my acoustic. This is with VSL Steinway D (without patches) - with other virtual pianos the curve changes slightly.
A screenshot of the curve in Mainstage:

[Linked Image]

That's a very gentle convex curve (not concave). wink Are you able to play very softly (like in my mp3 example) with that curve?

I was thinking... Should we reach the 127 value easily? I think that value is a velocity that you should almost never reach on a digital piano. It should correspond to the maximum theoretical velocity that an expert pianist can reach on an acoustic grand piano, but this "limit" is slightly different from person to person, so I think that it's better that it's set to a velocity level almost unattainable. After all an acoustic piano has no real limit on the upper velocity (apart from a mechanical break point that I think is much higher than what an human finger can reach -- at least when the instrument is in good condition!).

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888073 09/08/19 04:05 AM
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I have a deja vu. Kawai and suboptimal default touch curves. Why am I not surprised.


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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
CyberGene #2888117 09/08/19 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano

That's a very gentle convex curve (not concave). wink Are you able to play very softly (like in my mp3 example) with that curve?


From Merriam-Webster:
concave
hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl

Yes I am able to play very softly, I feel sometimes it's even too easy. I created this curve to have a similar touch experience as on the acoustic grand - after lots of back and forth between the two. Maybe it looks gentle but it feels vastly different from the straight line. Also, in this Mainstage curve, I am not sure that what you see is exactly what you get numerically.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I have a deja vu. Kawai and suboptimal default touch curves. Why am I not surprised.


Actually, this is not the default touch curve.
I use this curve because the original VSL Steinway D (which I prefer and use) was quite tilted towards the high velocities and because I am using a light setting on the Novus that again favors high velocities (to maximise resolution).
When I use a Normal touch curve on the Novus together with VSL CFX I use a different curve - with the upper right point suitably shifted left to compensate for the maximum velocity of 115.

I had to do the same thing on the AvantGrand N1 - the Normal touch setting wouldn't go beyond 110-115 no matter what. If I remember correctly, the V-Piano also had a similar problem - would go a little higher but not use the whole span.

Last edited by Erard; 09/08/19 07:46 AM.

Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
Erard #2888119 09/08/19 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Erard
Originally Posted by magicpiano
That's a very gentle convex curve (not concave). wink
From Merriam-Webster:
concave
hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl

Actually, the curve being discussed in this thread is a mathematical function. And convexity/concavity should also be defined as it would be for a function. A function is convex "if the line segment between any two points on the graph of the function lies above or on the graph."

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Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888120 09/08/19 07:55 AM
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I thought it was with the internal sound of the NV10. Is NV10 behaving correctly with the default touch curve(s)?


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
CyberGene #2888131 09/08/19 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano

P.S.2: I wonder if the Light+ setting make you hit "all" the 127 values without skip nothing.


A far as I can tell, I can hit all MIDi values between 2-127, but could it still be compressed near the middle? Sure. I certainly can't tell if it is, but I can easily tell the difference between 115fff and 127fff, so that matters more to me.

Originally Posted by magicpiano

That's a very gentle convex curve (not concave). wink Are you able to play very softly (like in my mp3 example) with that curve?

Kawai's light and light+ curves aren't linear, they don't sacrifice ppp/pp resolution. It's the mid-range that compresses a bit to allow for the high end to be reachable, from what I've seen.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I have a deja vu. Kawai and suboptimal default touch curves. Why am I not surprised.


Actually, when I play on the internal tone generator, I use the default normal touch curve, and it's perfect the way it is. My curve is for Garritan CFX and it's to expose the top velocity layer in MIDI range 115-128, so this applies to any DP that allows for higher MIDI values via touch curve settings. I can't tell the difference between normal on SK-EX and my custom curve on CFX. If I leave it on light or light+, I can easily tell it's to sensitive for the internal tones (or vice versa, normal DP curve on CFX sounds dull/muted if paired with my curve). I have different favorites set up for speakers, headphones, and combinations for recording internally whole monitoring externally or vice versa.

How is it on your N1X? Can you hit 127 on the default touch curve by striking a key as hard as you can? If so, does that change in the high end of you bump up the curve to a lighter setting?

Originally Posted by Erard

When I use a Normal touch curve on the Novus together with VSL CFX I use a different curve - with the upper right point suitably shifted left to compensate for the maximum velocity of 115.


I notic3 the same ranges on.my NV-10. My Garritan curve is just to easily be able to hit 127 when playing a large chord as hard as I can. I can actually use light as well, which for me also hits 120-125 with FFF (and I can actually hit 127 if I absolutely slam on the keys) but I don't want to slam on the keys so hard, so light+ is my concession to myself and lack of hand strength smile

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I thought it was with the internal sound of the NV10. Is NV10 behaving correctly with the default touch curve(s)?


Yes, for me normal curve is fine with the internal sound generator and speakers, and that's what I use. I don't frequently use speakers at volume anyways, and never bothered testing if there is a 120-128 velocity layer as there is with Garritan CFX that makes it beneficial to be able to reach those MIDi values. But normal feels more natural than light to me on the internal sound.


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Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888142 09/08/19 09:37 AM
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So, the normal curve of the NV10, with its internal piano sound, it's the most similar to an acoustic grand behavior? Is this true with all the Kawai DPs, or just with the top-models?

With my CN37, using the default normal curve, when I try to play very softly, what I get is an almost random velocity value between 1 and 25; there is absolutely no way to control my touch in that low range without changing the velocity curve shape. And it's just too easy to make unwanted loud bass notes with the left hand. Is this how an acoustic behaves?

P.S.: with the default curve until now I think I never reached more than 112..

Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888155 09/08/19 10:04 AM
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Gombessa, on the N1X and NU1X it’s almost impossible to reach 127 with the default touch curve. It goes up to 110 and needs really strong touch above that. I remember the same with my Yamaha P90 in the past which makes me believe that’s how they make their MIDI implementation and it’s pretty consistent. I can imagine that being a problem with VST-s. However all Yamaha digital pianos I’ve tried feel natural with their internal sound and default touch curve. Which is not the case with ANY Kawai pianos I’ve owned or tried (I haven’t tried NV10 though and I’m glad they finally sorted it out).


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Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
Tyrone Slothrop #2888163 09/08/19 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Erard
Originally Posted by magicpiano
That's a very gentle convex curve (not concave). wink
From Merriam-Webster:
concave
hollowed or rounded inward like the inside of a bowl

Actually, the curve being discussed in this thread is a mathematical function. And convexity/concavity should also be defined as it would be for a function. A function is convex "if the line segment between any two points on the graph of the function lies above or on the graph."

[Linked Image]


With all due respect, I find this quite pedantic. I was talking about a concave curve (shape) not about a convex function.

Yes a convex function happens to have the shape of a concave curve.
Convex function: its points belong to (are a subset of) a convex set which has a... convex shape! (the green area in the Wikipedia link you posted).


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Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888172 09/08/19 10:23 AM
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All this talk is just a bunch of vexatious spelunking.

My touch curve is cave on one end and vex on the other. Aren't they all?

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Re: My (definitive?) velocity curve. What do you use on your DP?
magicpiano #2888174 09/08/19 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, the normal curve of the NV10, with its internal piano sound, it's the most similar to an acoustic grand behavior? Is this true with all the Kawai DPs, or just with the top-models?

With my CN37, using the default normal curve, when I try to play very softly, what I get is an almost random velocity value between 1 and 25; there is absolutely no way to control my touch in that low range without changing the velocity curve shape. And it's just too easy to make unwanted loud bass notes with the left hand. Is this how an acoustic behaves?

P.S.: with the default curve until now I think I never reached more than 112..


Maybe you should try to use a weight and not your fingers to see if your CN37 responds correctly at low velocities.
I measured the NV10 this way, very carefully, and with a given weight all the keys return consistently almost the same value (in a range of two-three values) - also for very low velocities.

If you cannot control your touch, then change the velocity curve. Acoustics don't have one behaviour - some are inexpressive, some are great and some are exactly the way you describe. And you can't even change the velocity curve!

Last edited by Erard; 09/08/19 10:34 AM.

Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
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