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I Need help with these cords please #2887131 09/05/19 06:35 AM
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FeRGan Offline OP
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The piece is Socrate by Erik Satie. I have been trying to figure out how to play the chords in the bar "smoothly connected". There is a pedal sign ">" in the bar before, I believe. I wasn't sure if the new bar cancelled it out. I assumed it did since there were slur lines over the whole set of chords. The sign "m.g" is also present, which I found out means to play with the left hand, which makes it even more awkward. I have included the passages below. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Linked Image]


][Linked Image]


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: FeRGan] #2887137 09/05/19 07:03 AM
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You have to do legato pedalling, which is something every aspiring pianist needs to master:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_d8oask2VU

Without it, on cannot successfully play vast swaths of the piano rep from the late-Classical onwards.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: bennevis] #2887141 09/05/19 07:07 AM
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FeRGan Offline OP
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Thanks, I will look into it. Is it odd that there wasn't an indication that this needed to be done?


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: FeRGan] #2887149 09/05/19 07:19 AM
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by FeRGan
Thanks, I will look into it. Is it odd that there wasn't an indication that this needed to be done?

No, legato pedalling - in fact, pedalling in general - is taken for granted by composers, unless they want some specific effect (like Beethoven in Moonlight). And it isn't set in stone.

Graham Fitch explains why in his video.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: FeRGan] #2887161 09/05/19 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FeRGan
There is a pedal sign ">" in the bar before, I believe. I wasn't sure if the new bar cancelled it out.


This sign is not a pedal sign, it is an accentuation mark that you have to highlight that note or chord. When there is a pedal sign, the bar does not cancel it; it is cancelled by a specific sign. Sometimes also there is a pedal indication but no details as to how to apply it; typically the moonlight sonata, where Beethoven indicates it has to be played without dampers but gives no specifics as to how exactly. It is up to you to know the general usage of pedal for that musical period and also obviously based on the score itself and your personal interpretative bias.

Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: FeRGan] #2887168 09/05/19 08:32 AM
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Muove Offline
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I'm not sure but I would guess the m.g. is only for the bottom notes, a sort of contrapunctal melody, while the right hand plays the three topmost notes as chords? It would make this a whole lot feasable.
Still, syncopated pedaling will probably be needed.
Also note that in makin chords connect you dont't have to play all notes legato. It usually suffices to play one or two lines between the chords connected.

Last edited by Muove; 09/05/19 08:35 AM.

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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: FeRGan] #2887176 09/05/19 08:37 AM
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Just to check that you understand the m.g. Just means the bottom notes in the measure( with the stems pointing down) and not the entire chord


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: dogperson] #2887213 09/05/19 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Just to check that you understand the m.g. Just means the bottom notes in the measure( with the stems pointing down) and not the entire chord


Just to clarify: As it appears on my screen, the two top notes of each chord are played with the right hand, the two bottom notes with the left hand.

Regards,


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: BruceD] #2887249 09/05/19 11:52 AM
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cmb13 Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by dogperson
Just to check that you understand the m.g. Just means the bottom notes in the measure( with the stems pointing down) and not the entire chord


Just to clarify: As it appears on my screen, the two top notes of each chord are played with the right hand, the two bottom notes with the left hand.

Regards,

Exactly. Mind the stem direction.
The first chord is FAC with L, F with R.
The second is Bb-Bb with L (octave), D-F with R.


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: Sidokar] #2887250 09/05/19 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar

This sign is not a pedal sign, it is an accentuation mark that you have to highlight that note or chord.

Exactly.
Originally Posted by Sidokar

When there is a pedal sign, the bar does not cancel it; it is cancelled by a specific sign....

Usually looks like an asterisk.


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: BruceD] #2887258 09/05/19 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by dogperson
Just to check that you understand the m.g. Just means the bottom notes in the measure( with the stems pointing down) and not the entire chord


Just to clarify: As it appears on my screen, the two top notes of each chord are played with the right hand, the two bottom notes with the left hand.

Regards,

And, besides that, who cares what Satie or the publisher thought about which hands to play with? Do what it takes to play the passage musically. Probably the m.g. as notated is the easiest way to play it, but I'd be careful to explore how to voice it; as written they look like chunky chords, but the previous few measures show two independent voices in the left hand. I'm guessing I'd use m.g. on the bottom two notes as notated, but maybe not voice it as if I was playing it that way.

I have some Satie scores that offer very dubious chord separations. I know in this case it is an editorial edition as I found the original scores online and they did not include the markings. In any case I just do whatever works best for my hands, so long as I can honor note duration and such.


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: cmb13] #2887327 09/05/19 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by dogperson
Just to check that you understand the m.g. Just means the bottom notes in the measure( with the stems pointing down) and not the entire chord


Just to clarify: As it appears on my screen, the two top notes of each chord are played with the right hand, the two bottom notes with the left hand.

Regards,

Exactly. Mind the stem direction.
The first chord is FAC with L, F with R.
The second is Bb-Bb with L (octave), D-F with R.


You write "exactly" then you contradict what I wrote.

Regards,


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: BruceD] #2887328 09/05/19 04:48 PM
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cmb13 Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by dogperson
Just to check that you understand the m.g. Just means the bottom notes in the measure( with the stems pointing down) and not the entire chord


Just to clarify: As it appears on my screen, the two top notes of each chord are played with the right hand, the two bottom notes with the left hand.

Regards,

Exactly. Mind the stem direction.
The first chord is FAC with L, F with R.
The second is Bb-Bb with L (octave), D-F with R.


You write "exactly" then you contradict what I wrote.

Regards,

Testy! No I agreed in concept of using both hands just differed on the first C. I thought the L had FAC bc I couldn’t see that the stem reached the C on the R. I just zoomed up more and see the F and A are L, C and F right. Couldn’t see it well. Sorrrryy.


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Re: I Need help with these cords please [Re: FeRGan] #2887352 09/05/19 05:51 PM
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A lot of your confusion will be cleared up if you try a different way of thinking about music notation.

A musical score is not an instruction manual for how to play a piece. When you first start learning, it does seem that way, because there are instructions on the page.

The score tells you, for example:
- what notes to play
- rhythms
- dynamics
- articulation
- pedaling, sometimes

These are all elements of music which are immediately audible. If you do them correctly, the listener will hear something that sounds like music. So yeah, you might view those as instructions.

However, as you notice, there are certain things that don't make sense when you look at it that way:
- there can be multiple fingerings that work
- playing with the left hand vs. the right hand may be subjective
- pedaling is often left out, or notated very haphazardly

There are also many important elements of music which are simply not notated, such as the relative dynamics of notes within a chord, or the structure of phrases and harmonic progressions.

As a pianist, you view the score as an instruction manual. You should be aware that great composers do not view it that way. That is, they are not thinking of themselves as giving you a piano lesson (unless perhaps they are writing music aimed at students). Instead, they view the score as a way of capturing on paper their overall vision for the piece.

So, you should read music the same way. Try to get a sense of what the composer meant to say. Why was it written that way, and not some other way? Is there a better way of writing it? Is there a way of simplifying it (leaving out notes), and still getting the main point across? What is the main point, anyway? Answering these questions will help you understand much more deeply what is written there.

Finally, recognize that you are a human being, apart from the composer. What makes musical performance interesting, in my opinion, is that the composer's vision doesn't come to life until it is filtered through you, the performing artist. In that sense, you must own the music. When you watch a great actor onscreen, they aren't merely reading a script. They actually become the character (even if it means violating the script), and that's why viewing their performance is a great experience.

This all requires bringing more of yourself to the table, and letting go of the need for "correctness" to some degree. So there's a risk, emotionally. You have to decide if it's worth the risk.


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