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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: malkin] #2885999
09/01/19 07:17 PM
09/01/19 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
....
Thank you. It is not original. It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ;


“You’ve got to live right, too. It’s the way you live that predisposes you to avoid the traps and see the right facts. You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally. That’s the way all the experts do it. The making of a painting or the fixing of a motorcycle isn’t separate from the rest of your existence. If you’re a sloppy thinker the six days of the week you aren’t working on your machine, what trap avoidance, what gimmicks, can make you all of a sudden sharp on the seventh? It all goes together ... The real cycle you're working in is a cycle called yourself. The machine that appears to be "out there" and the person that appears to be "in here" are not two separate things. They grow toward Quality or fall away from Quality together.”

Very interesting!


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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Moo :)] #2886000
09/01/19 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Ido what is the sonatina that made you hate classical period so much? Is it clementi c major or is it something worse?!


Agree on that one


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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2886004
09/01/19 07:20 PM
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There's only two types of music, depending on taste : Good and bad.

Why cut out part of your market by discounting a whole era?

It's just music. Dig around, you'll find stuff you like. Ok, it may not be your favourite era (It isn't mine either) but why discount it altogether?

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: CharlesXX] #2886026
09/01/19 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesXX

The thrust of what I intended to say was: "keep an open mind regarding the different styles of music and composers". I would dispute that this is in any way arrogant or ignorant

Your thrust is sound, except that it was not the question posted by the OP.

Let me reiterate - I was answering a specific question specifically. Wherupon you accused me of being facile. Why not try reading a few of my 10,000+ posts first, instead of making assumptions? I've already spoken my mind many, many times about the merits of Classical music.

If you want to start a discussion - or argument - about the merits of playing music from all eras, that is a separate issue, and you should start a separate thread.

Quote
bennevis, thanks for your terrific response. I admit I did sound a bit arrogant. Quite a bit actually. But ignorant?


Yes - ignorance about what I was replying to, and what question was actually posted by the OP.

Read what I wrote above.
Quote
The Debussy controversy. You quoted a quote from somewhere regarding Debussy and Impressionism. Keep an open mind. Your quote proves nothing. (Arrogant but not ignorant here!)

Here is a quote from "Music in The Twentieth Century" by William W Austin, p 24. "Debussy's style is commonly labelled "impressionism." This is the first and foremost of many dubious catchwords of modern music, introduced by hurried journalists to pique the curiosity of hurried readers, and then preserved by compilers of reference books - encyclopedias and historical surveys - where their uncertain connotations are apt to mislead."

And further: "Thus the label "impressionism" is misleading if taken to imply that Debussy deliberately sought a musical parallel for the techniques or moods of the impressionist painters."

I do think it's important to note that Debussy wrote: "I am trying to make something new - realities, as it were: what imbeciles call 'impressionism.'"

Who cares what a specific individual prefers to call it? One can look up and find contradictions for almost any definition, by any so-called expert. Just ask Humpty Dumpty.

Ravel is also labelled as an impressionist, but I don't really see him as such. I play Gaspard, and to me even Ondine is more Lisztian than impressionism, which is more than I can say for Debussy's own Ondine. And as for Voiles and several other of his piano pieces, you don't get anything more impressionistic in the piano oeuvre.

Composers claim all sorts for their own music. Is there any composer who admits that what he does is not original, unless he's copying someone that he admires (like Ravel et al with Mozart, who seems to have been universally admired among composers)? What did Stravinsky claim for his Le sacre du printemps which only fairly recently has been disproved?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2886036
09/01/19 09:46 PM
09/01/19 09:46 PM
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Consider that sonatinas is the cornerstone that many teachers base their teaching on for many years, so be prepared to fight. smile

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: cmb13] #2886188
09/02/19 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Ido what is the sonatina that made you hate classical period so much? Is it clementi c major or is it something worse?!


Agree on that one


If it was the Clementi, then learn the Satie Sonatine Bureaucratique as an antidote.


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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Moo :)] #2886200
09/02/19 09:04 AM
09/02/19 09:04 AM
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1. It's not a particular piece
2. I don't hate classical era
3. I've already learned ~10 sonatinas from different composers + bits and pieces of Mozart sonatas (way above my level). So, I do have some familiarity with motifs from that era.
The current sonatina is the first one given to me by the current teacher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Oc8oB4WE4
As I said, it's not bad, just not very original.

My experience (as a listener) started by listening to many Mozart pieces, noticing that they have MANY similarities, but attributing that to 'Mozart unique writing'. Then listening to Hyden and thinking "wtf, it sounds like Mozart" - repeat this procedure several times with different composers.
Sure, they're not exactly the same. But every time I listen to a new classical era piece I feel like it's a variation on another piece.

In Baroque there's also a similarity between different composers and yet each piece manages to preserve its own originality, uniqueness, and depth.

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2886210
09/02/19 09:48 AM
09/02/19 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ido
[...]In Baroque there's also a similarity between different composers and yet each piece manages to preserve its own originality, uniqueness, and depth.


Within the context and limits of a specific era, the same can be said for almost all "periods" of music.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2886218
09/02/19 10:13 AM
09/02/19 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ido

My experience (as a listener) started by listening to many Mozart pieces, noticing that they have MANY similarities, but attributing that to 'Mozart unique writing'. Then listening to Hayden and thinking "wtf, it sounds like Mozart" - repeat this procedure several times with different composers.
Sure, they're not exactly the same. But every time I listen to a new classical era piece I feel like it's a variation on another piece.

In Baroque there's also a similarity between different composers and yet each piece manages to preserve its own originality, uniqueness, and depth.
Very few people would agree that even any two Beethoven Sonatas, no less all of them, sound the same. I think the Mozart and Haydn sonatas do sound a little more similar to each other vs. those by Beethoven, but certainly not in terms of the melodic material. Their similarities are more in terms of the passage work they use....scales, alberti bass, arpeggios, broken octaves, trills, relatively limited keyboard range, etc.

I think the best approach is to think that the piano works of Mozart and Haydn are very great and that any similarities among their pieces are kind of like what great painters do. Don't all the works of Rembrandt or Van Gogh look quite similar?



Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/02/19 10:17 AM.
Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: malkin] #2886258
09/02/19 12:21 PM
09/02/19 12:21 PM
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Connecticut, USA
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Originally Posted by malkin
It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance;


You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.


Exactly!!!!!!!!

Why would anyone ever try to do it any other way?

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: MichaelJK] #2886264
09/02/19 12:37 PM
09/02/19 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK
Originally Posted by malkin
It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance;


You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.


Exactly!!!!!!!!

Why would anyone ever try to do it any other way?


Here is the perfect painting by the perfect artist who made himself perfect before he painted the perfect self-portrait of his perfect self - naturally:

https://images.app.goo.gl/yz3H72aq14P69muz7


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: bennevis] #2886266
09/02/19 12:48 PM
09/02/19 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by MichaelJK
Originally Posted by malkin
It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance;


You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.


Exactly!!!!!!!!

Why would anyone ever try to do it any other way?


Here is the perfect painting by the perfect artist who made himself perfect before he painted the perfect self-portrait of his perfect self - naturally:

https://images.app.goo.gl/yz3H72aq14P69muz7



This fellow also tried to make himself perfect before painting his self portrait

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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2886267
09/02/19 12:53 PM
09/02/19 12:53 PM
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I think it’s fine to not like classical period music. It really doesn’t sound like a good piece to me what your playing. I’ve never heard of the composer and I see nothing specific you could not learn from other pieces or periods. I don’t think Alberti bass is such a challenge but if it is perhaps some playing from this period is useful. I actually found most of the classical period sounds fairly similar and dull but I have played a few pieces from the period and am aware there are a big variety of styles. I would not keep playing if you are really not enjoying it.

I do not like baroque music and don’t think I’ve played anything from this period in years. Oddly I think it works on a harpsichord but I don’t like listening or playing to it on the piano. I’ve never played a harpsichord so I’ve avoided all music from this period.. I have however played several of the preludes and fugues in opus 35 by Mendelssohn which I think mr Ben mentioned. I agree you can develop from other periods and composers you like. I’m not a great believer in learning music you don’t like or playing only what a teacher recommends.

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: MichaelJK] #2886269
09/02/19 12:54 PM
09/02/19 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by malkin
It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance;
You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.

When it comes to being perfect, I'd rather go with Byron Katie.

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Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: bennevis] #2886587
09/03/19 02:07 PM
09/03/19 02:07 PM
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Connecticut, USA
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by MichaelJK
Originally Posted by malkin
It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance;


You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.


Exactly!!!!!!!!

Why would anyone ever try to do it any other way?


Here is the perfect painting by the perfect artist who made himself perfect before he painted the perfect self-portrait of his perfect self - naturally:

https://images.app.goo.gl/yz3H72aq14P69muz7




Yeah, I'd say that's pretty perfect.

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2887110
09/05/19 04:24 AM
09/05/19 04:24 AM
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I thought I'd make an update, after having a lesson yesterday:
My teacher said many other students share my opinion, and that he himself is not so fond of this era.
However, he did give me some pointers which made the piece much more interesting, such as pedal use as means for sound enhancement, different ways to interpret the staccato markings, and alternative way to interpret the rhythmic feel. So it feels there's enough content for me to work on to justify working on it more.
So, I've decided to give it a go.

smile

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: bennevis] #2887401
09/05/19 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by MichaelJK
Originally Posted by malkin
It grows from this quote from Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance;


You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It’s easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.


Exactly!!!!!!!!

Why would anyone ever try to do it any other way?


Here is the perfect painting by the perfect artist who made himself perfect before he painted the perfect self-portrait of his perfect self - naturally:



To clarify for anyone who may have misunderstood, the Pirsig quote is from a book about philosophy, not a "how to" manual on painting (or even motorcycle maintenance).

Recognizing perfection may be difficult or it may be simple. A quote from another work of philosophy seems relevant:

Il est très simple : on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.


Learner
Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2907064
11/01/19 09:03 AM
11/01/19 09:03 AM
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Yes, I'm reviving this thread, I thought I'd make an update:

I've been playing some classical era stuff for several months now, and while the material is just entry level sonatinas which are not very interesting, I think practicing them taught me a ton, especially under the guidance of a good teacher. It made me appreciate and enjoy higher level stuff from that era.
I'm still at the beginning of my classical era path, but I can already tell it has transformed my playing and that I would have been missing out greatly if I chose to avoid it.

That's it.

Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2907090
11/01/19 10:20 AM
11/01/19 10:20 AM
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Coming in late on this. I did have some lessons when I was young, but not for long. However, I did learn some Mozart, this piece:
Mozart sonata in C K.545 2nd mov, Mitsuko Uchida Piano
There is a lot of repetition so it isn't all that that complicated to get to play, does give a reasonable foundation and is really pleasant - has emotional content and so on. Mitsuko Uchida makes it sound wonderful....

Last edited by petebfrance; 11/01/19 10:21 AM.

regards
Pete
Re: pieces from the classical era - can I avoid them? [Re: Ido] #2907093
11/01/19 10:30 AM
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Thank you for coming back to give us an update. It not only satisfies our curiosity, but gives us another data point for when the next person comes along with a similar question. Good work!


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