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mysterious red lines in a score
#2885673 08/31/19 09:03 PM
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I was looking up various editions of the Chopin Minute Waltz, esp. for the ending. I ran into one on IMSLP with Joan Trescases. Some of the note lines are red, and I'm curious what this might be about.

http://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a8/IMSLP203939-WIMA.e699-op64n1.pdf

(last page, last line, ofc)

I did a screenshot and enhanced the lines to be more visible.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sjsso2t1q1drpfb/MW3-%20Trescaes%20colours.jpg?dl=0

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885688 08/31/19 10:22 PM
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Great question -- because there's absolutely nothing clear about it.

Usually with such a thing, there'd be some reasonably clear thing about it. But there isn't.

I looked at it with interest, found nothing obvious, took it over to the piano and tried to find something, anything at all, and didn't.

Here's what I would do about it, ultimately: ignore it.
(Unless somewhere on there, there's an explanation, in which case I'd read the explanation, and then go back to ignoring it.) ha

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885696 08/31/19 11:10 PM
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It was pure curiosity. One hunch I had was that maybe this person was grouping notes, since the RH speeds up, and one way of seeing "speed up" is "more notes per second", and there are more notes between each consecutive pairs of lines, and then there are the two, which suggests a slow-down just before the ending part (which would be more like slamming on the brakes just before the ending, so nah).

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885706 09/01/19 12:17 AM
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It looks to me as though the person (Joan Trescases) who "manufactured" this copy just accidentally clicked on the wrong colour for a few of the note stems. Because of their random placement, they don't seem to have any significance.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885712 09/01/19 12:53 AM
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When I downloaded the imslp file on my phone, some of the stems and bar lines were red and the pic was a bit fuzzy, and then as then turned black and the picture cleared up. On my computer, everything is just black. I think it's just a weird artifact.

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885714 09/01/19 01:32 AM
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Using the Atril pdf viewer program (Linux) the score renders without any red in the last line (or anywhere else in the document).

That suggests that it's just something that the "5D PDF Creator" software did when writing the pdf that makes it render differently depending on what pdf viewer you are using. The black lines are supposed to be just that -- black lines.


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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885739 09/01/19 04:35 AM
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Those are the notes that Jesus sang.


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO
Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885811 09/01/19 10:40 AM
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I don't see any read lines in my Chrome "view" view'.

But what did Joan Trescases do? He went to the source and created another version (?) but is it any different and why does he feel the need to do that?

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885826 09/01/19 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I was looking up various editions of the Chopin Minute Waltz, esp. for the ending. I ran into one on IMSLP with Joan Trescases. Some of the note lines are red, and I'm curious what this might be about.

http://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a8/IMSLP203939-WIMA.e699-op64n1.pdf

(last page, last line, ofc)

I did a screenshot and enhanced the lines to be more visible.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sjsso2t1q1drpfb/MW3-%20Trescaes%20colours.jpg?dl=0



On my computer your original is all black. But your screenshot did show the red?



[Linked Image]
Re: mysterious red lines in a score
newport #2885877 09/01/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by newport
I don't see any read lines in my Chrome "view" view'.

But what did Joan Trescases do? He went to the source and created another version (?) but is it any different and why does he feel the need to do that?

Well, the mysterious red lines seem to have been a dud due to digital technology. Without the red lines, there is nothing unusual about what Trescases did.

However, I was comparing scores for that last line for a reason. Chopin wrote this long cascading scale that speeds up, like a cadenza sort of, and underneath we have bar lines only in the bass line, with a LH that comes in - disappears - comes in again, and the timing of all that seems to be fuzzy. You'll hear different performers handle it differently. I collected a couple:

Kullak:
Shows how Chopin wrote it, where in the 2nd-last measure the LH Ab comes in with the C or around the C. In the red square, he proposes a division into triplets, and our Ab comes in with the A nat.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yu5le2e1fihajp4/MW%20-%20Kullak.jpg?dl=0

Peters:
Same thing as the red square, except that he indicates triplets through "3" rather than bar lines.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5zoget3nppve4l/MW%20-%20Peters.jpg?dl=0

Riemann:
Does an 8 + 10 division

https://www.dropbox.com/s/68t6q9xrze4hp23/MW2%20-%20Riemann%20-%20Deb%208%20%2B%2010.jpg?dl=0

This resource - someone gave me a link - lets you see the versions of a dozen editions, for any measure. If you click on a measure, it brings up versions (in editions) of that measure.

http://www.chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/pageview/75659/

This is what I was actually exploring. The red lines were a red herring. They didn't make sense because they don't make sense and are probably "not really there" (originally).

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885916 09/01/19 04:46 PM
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I do this--it's just what I do for no particular reason other than sounding right to me:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2885911.html

Start slow, cascade down to the A-natural (slight pause before that note), last six RH notes with LH, a tempo. Don't blur the bitter end, C into D-flat, clean pedal change. 😆


WhoDwaldi
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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
WhoDwaldi #2885954 09/01/19 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I do this--it's just what I do for no particular reason other than sounding right to me:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2885911.html

Start slow, cascade down to the A-natural (slight pause before that note), last six RH notes with LH, a tempo. Don't blur the bitter end, C into D-flat, clean pedal change. 😆


That's last six notes of the run, of course, before the final D-flat.


WhoDwaldi
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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
WhoDwaldi #2885965 09/01/19 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I do this--it's just what I do for no particular reason other than sounding right to me:

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2885911.html

Start slow, cascade down to the A-natural (slight pause before that note), last six RH notes with LH, a tempo. Don't blur the bitter end, C into D-flat, clean pedal change. 😆


That's last six notes of the run, of course, before the final D-flat.

That's also the way I play it - eventually. Prior to that, I played the whole run unmeasured, until I heard Zimerman....

Almost all concert pianists play it that way, but strictly speaking, that isn't what Chopin wrote (unless someone has an edition that is written that way?)


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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2885975 09/01/19 07:14 PM
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There is at least one other possibility. (Listen all the way through. crazy )



WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Re: mysterious red lines in a score
Chrispy #2886016 09/01/19 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
Those are the notes that Jesus sang.

laugh


Learner
Re: mysterious red lines in a score
Chrispy #2886041 09/01/19 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
Those are the notes that Jesus sang.

Who?

Re: mysterious red lines in a score
WhoDwaldi #2886325 09/02/19 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
There is at least one other possibility. (Listen all the way through. crazy )



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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
Chrispy #2886402 09/02/19 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
Those are the notes that Jesus sang.

laugh cry


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Re: mysterious red lines in a score
DanS #2886503 09/03/19 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Those are the notes that Jesus sang.

Who?


I think Chrispy referenced a widely respected cultural hero by way of expressing admiration of Chopin in general and this piece in particular rather than trying to incite a religious debate. Insert mythological, legendary, or historical cultural hero of your choice.


Austin Rogers, PhD
Music Teacher in Cedar Park, TX
Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko"
Re: mysterious red lines in a score
keystring #2886980 09/04/19 04:38 PM
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No red shows up on my screen either. Maybe those particular lines are narrow enough on the page to selectively illuminate red dots on a lower resolution screen. If that's the case, the colors may shift or disappear if, not using full screen, you could move the score a little to the right or left.


Jack
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