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Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: GC13] #2885450
08/31/19 09:19 AM
08/31/19 09:19 AM
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Hakki Offline
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In recent years developers are given the choice to cancel auto gain functionality of phone mics. So now on board mics on these phones work pretty well for piano tuning.

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Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: Hakki] #2885461
08/31/19 09:51 AM
08/31/19 09:51 AM
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Posts: 1,808
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j&j Offline
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I think the argument has taken a different turn from my intent. Yes we are reaching a point where sophisticated software can be bundled into an app and the usual pitfalls of input and output methodology can be overcome. So when my piano tech with 40 years of experience shows up with his big tool bag and just pulls out his iPhone or iPad with “PianoMarvel” or whatever software he’s chosen, I won’t be at all worried. What I’m paying for is his 40 years of experience and his extensive Steinway and Yamaha training to use that software, even if it’s now in his Apple Watch. It’s not really about the app or the software, it’s about the brain with training and experience, the hands that have countless hours of time using all those tools in his tool bag.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
Pianos - the reason God made trees!
[Linked Image]
Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: GC13] #2885530
08/31/19 12:56 PM
08/31/19 12:56 PM
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Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: GC13] #2885558
08/31/19 01:48 PM
08/31/19 01:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,902
San Jose, CA
Jeff Clef Offline
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"...It’s not really about the app or the software, it’s about the brain with training and experience, the hands that have countless hours of time using all those tools in his tool bag. "

Applause! Applause!

Last edited by Jeff Clef; 08/31/19 01:49 PM.

Clef

Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: j&j] #2885582
08/31/19 02:52 PM
08/31/19 02:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 189
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Online content
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Originally Posted by j&j
I will agree that smartphones are have more computing power than many specialized apps instruments and computers from just a few years back but typically lack enough input ports for quality microphones and/or speakers.


That is incorrect. There isn't a single mobile phone worth its money that doesn't support USB-To-Go (OTG). With that capability you can easily connect a pair of professional microphones thru an external amplifier that even provides phantom power. You can also add an external USB-C hub to support both high quality inputs and outputs. My Behringer UR 22 MKII offers recording and conversion capabilities at 192kHz/32Bit. That's state of the art and the Yamaha preamps inside are of professional quality.

Quote
Their operating systems are also typically just app based. There may be some purists that do command line prompts on their smartphones but I just haven’t seen it.


App is an abbreviation for application, which in computer terms means that it's an executable program. This can be low level applications in Assembler, but it can also be anything else from running a sandboxed container, a scripting language or a complex high level language running as runtime compiled executable in a Virtual machine as it is used on Android. And actually I find it a lot easier to handle file management through the bash command line provided by Android when it comes to finding, moving, copying or deleting files as compared to any GUI. So there you are.

Quote
I have to go back to my laptop to correctly post pics to the forums photo gallery. I do frequently take pictures with my iPhone but if I want to seriously edit them, back to the laptop. My Canon DSLR with a good quality Canon L lens runs rings around my iPhone because the DSLRs features are completely dedicated to capturing images and image management, rather than offering social media, email and calendar options. Just me personally but I would trust tuning software on a MacBook Pro or Surface over what can be put on a smartphone.


The main reason for that is the form factor of a smartphone or tablet, especially in regard to inputs (keyboard, mouse) and outputs (display size). Those are natural restrictions and this is why mobile phone are not designed to handle 37 submenus and 48 keyboard shortcuts. I find it a lot easier, though, to make a phone call, take a quick pictures, scan documents or be woken by an alarm with my smartphone as compared to any laptop.

And when it comes to piano tuning, it's a heck lot easier to have an intuitive display the size of a smartphone, that has integrated inouts as well and that I can easily move around the piano during a tuning session.

I am sorry, but I don't agree with you here.

Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: GC13] #2885584
08/31/19 02:56 PM
08/31/19 02:56 PM
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Posts: 189
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Online content
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Vienna, Austria
30 years of experience usually translates to 28 years of trial and error, most of which could have been eliminated by intense tuition, continuous supervision and usage of modern technologies to analyze and monitor the progress of an aspiring piano technician.

I know, I am a heretic.

Last edited by OE1FEU; 08/31/19 02:57 PM.
Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: OE1FEU] #2885668
08/31/19 07:35 PM
08/31/19 07:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,808
Southwest
j&j Offline
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Southwest
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
30 years of experience usually translates to 28 years of trial and error, most of which could have been eliminated by intense tuition, continuous supervision and usage of modern technologies to analyze and monitor the progress of an aspiring piano technician.

I know, I am a heretic.

Wow!


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
Pianos - the reason God made trees!
[Linked Image]
Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: GC13] #2885740
09/01/19 03:37 AM
09/01/19 03:37 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,116
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Hakki Offline
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A tuning app on a smartphone is just a tool that helps the tuner.
Tuning stability on the other hand depends on the experience of the tuner.

Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: GC13] #2885914
09/01/19 03:39 PM
09/01/19 03:39 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,924
Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Tennessee
Greetings,
Stability is about trial and error. We try something, if it works, we leave it, if it doesn't, we correct the error. Whether aural or machine tuning, stability is about leaving unequal amounts of tension in the various parts of the string so that it doesn't move when the hammer hits it. However, in 43 years, I haven't seen a piano yet in which all strings moved alike, so there is an ongoing process of " trial" as I tune. The odds of a newcomer leaving as stable a tuning as I do are slim, but it is because I know "what" to try, what to expect, and what to infer if that string doesn't behave as I thought it should. I have also wasted enough time on futile endeavors to skip them, now.

There is a trial aspect as I bring a string sharp, in that I register the friction of the string's bearing points while simultaneously registering the nature of the tuning pin's movement and how much resistance the block is offering. this happens in less than a second or two. I try flattening it to pitch with enough built in torque and flex in the pin to sharpen the top string without moving the speaking length when I remove the strain from the hammer. I test to make sure I haven't over-tightened the top string by wiggling the pin enough so that an excess of tension would sharpen the speaking length. My target is a top string above the speaking tension, but not so much that the friction of the agraffe will allow it to move.

My experience has simply reduced the amount of errors I make in positioning a tuning pin, but most every one has to be tested and corrected to leave in a stable attitude. The ideal is to be able to tune downwards to pitch in such a way that when the right pitch is reached, a relaxation of the hammer will automatically tighten the top-string just the right amount. This is doable, but requires really reading the flex and torque of the pin against the friction of the string and staying in the zone for the hour or so it takes to get through a piano.
Regards,

Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: Ed Foote] #2886189
09/02/19 08:33 AM
09/02/19 08:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,808
Southwest
j&j Offline
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j&j  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2009
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Southwest
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Greetings,
Stability is about trial and error. We try something, if it works, we leave it, if it doesn't, we correct the error. Whether aural or machine tuning, stability is about leaving unequal amounts of tension in the various parts of the string so that it doesn't move when the hammer hits it. However, in 43 years, I haven't seen a piano yet in which all strings moved alike, so there is an ongoing process of " trial" as I tune. The odds of a newcomer leaving as stable a tuning as I do are slim, but it is because I know "what" to try, what to expect, and what to infer if that string doesn't behave as I thought it should. I have also wasted enough time on futile endeavors to skip them, now.

There is a trial aspect as I bring a string sharp, in that I register the friction of the string's bearing points while simultaneously registering the nature of the tuning pin's movement and how much resistance the block is offering. this happens in less than a second or two. I try flattening it to pitch with enough built in torque and flex in the pin to sharpen the top string without moving the speaking length when I remove the strain from the hammer. I test to make sure I haven't over-tightened the top string by wiggling the pin enough so that an excess of tension would sharpen the speaking length. My target is a top string above the speaking tension, but not so much that the friction of the agraffe will allow it to move.

My experience has simply reduced the amount of errors I make in positioning a tuning pin, but most every one has to be tested and corrected to leave in a stable attitude. The ideal is to be able to tune downwards to pitch in such a way that when the right pitch is reached, a relaxation of the hammer will automatically tighten the top-string just the right amount. This is doable, but requires really reading the flex and torque of the pin against the friction of the string and staying in the zone for the hour or so it takes to get through a piano.
Regards,


Thank you Ed! That is something a newbie with intense intuition and a smartphone app won’t likely achieve. Maybe it’s just me but I leave all my piano adjustments to the experts.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
Pianos - the reason God made trees!
[Linked Image]
Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: j&j] #2886273
09/02/19 01:01 PM
09/02/19 01:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 189
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Online content
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Joined: Nov 2017
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Vienna, Austria
Originally Posted by j&j

Thank you Ed! That is something a newbie with intense intuition and a smartphone app won’t likely achieve. Maybe it’s just me but I leave all my piano adjustments to the experts.


You are misquoting me. I wrote about intense tuition, not intuition.

Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: OE1FEU] #2886293
09/02/19 02:13 PM
09/02/19 02:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,808
Southwest
j&j Offline
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j&j  Offline
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Southwest
I apologize for misquoting you.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
Pianos - the reason God made trees!
[Linked Image]
Re: Achieving Tuning Stability [Re: OE1FEU] #2887275
09/05/19 12:55 PM
09/05/19 12:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 172
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Ed Sutton Offline
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Posts: 172
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Bill McKaig,RPT
OE1FEU,
If you are referring to the Florida State program as a scam I have to disagree. I have visited the school and seen the program. It is actually a masters program and most of the students are graduates of the North Bennet Street School.


So tell me more about the program, especially those parts where the beef actually is. That is, where and who are the outstanding concert technicians actually teaching the students? Where does the justification for a master of science program come from in terms of actual science? Please correct my impression that students are pushed into a scholarship program that makes them tune all the pianos in the school all year round instead of actual teaching contents by experts. Last time I checked the head of programme is not a renowned concert technician himself with lots of collaborations with renowned artists to show, yet he calls himself the one to do all the relevant teaching. What about summer and winter internships? Are those provided by the university in terms of travelling with master concert technicians all over the world, preparing pianos for the greatest pianists under supervision of an experienced master? Are there internships at some of the most important factories for concert grands, recording studios, orchestras, festivals, concert halls?

The fact that most of the students are graduates of the North Bennet Street School just shows that there is a desperate demand for a high quality education that just isn't there, not in this programme.


Anne Garee, the person who created the FSU program, has retired. The new program head has a doctorate in horn performance and has not passed the RPT exams. Evaluation of the program should be based upon its current condition, for better or worse.


Ed Sutton, RPT
Just a piano tuner!
Durham NC USA
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