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I need some advices for possible purchase. #2884324 08/28/19 05:27 AM
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caracole Offline OP
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Hi,
(Please excuse my English, feel free to correct my mistakes.)

Please keep in mind for your answer that my considerations here are just focusing on the "keyboard layer sensation/feeling" (sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones)

I currently have a digital Roland HP 204 piano bought in 2008.
It was a pretty good one at this moment. One of the first digital which was not too soft. But it's still far from a digital keyboard. I need to change...

I'm wondering what it does worth versus the new digital pianos from nowadays ?
What would the change cost to me ? For a second hand obviously but a quite recent one.

(I can't buy a digital because of my neighbors...)

I have tried hybrids : N1X, NU1X and NV10. It seems to be very good but it's mostly very expansive. The point that also bothers me is that electric things usually breaks down... And 5 year warranty is just a joke for 4000 €...
If I buy something 4000€, I need it to work at least 20 years ! And I can't buy a real piano. frown

So, what do you think ? Is it worthy to buy a second hand digital piano from nowadays ? Or just keep my Roland HP 204 frown ?
Thanks for any help !

Last edited by caracole; 08/28/19 05:28 AM.
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Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884328 08/28/19 05:48 AM
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CyberGene Online Content
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Have you considered using software pianos? There are fantastic options right now such as Garritan CFX, VSL Steinway/CFX, as well as Pianoteq (if you like modeled pianos). You can control it through your HP 204 or you can buy a keyboard that you like. Many people seem to like the Kawai VPC1 which is a MIDI controller only, but you can also consider stage pianos to use them as controllers. I have used my Kawai ES7 with Garritan CFX Lite first and then upgraded to Garritan CFX and that was a great way to resurrect a piano which was good at the time but its sound compared to Garritan CFX was a joke.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: CyberGene] #2884332 08/28/19 06:00 AM
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caracole Offline OP
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Have you considered using software pianos? There are fantastic options right now such as Garritan CFX, VSL Steinway/CFX, as well as Pianoteq (if you like modeled pianos). You can control it through your HP 204 or you can buy a keyboard that you like. Many people seem to like the Kawai VPC1 which is a MIDI controller only, but you can also consider stage pianos to use them as controllers. I have used my Kawai ES7 with Garritan CFX Lite first and then upgraded to Garritan CFX and that was a great way to resurrect a piano which was good at the time but its sound compared to Garritan CFX was a joke.

Thanks for your reply.
But I don't think you understood my problem. It's weird because your answer is exactly the opposite of what i described : "Please keep in mind for your answer that my considerations here are just focusing on the "keyboard layer sensation/feeling" (sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones)". Is it a problem of English grammar/vocabulary ? I don't want the best sound of the world. I don't know how to say it in other ways frown I need to feel the key I push on. My problem is not a sound problem. It's a sensation one. II need to feel under my fingers a good response from the keyboard.

Last edited by caracole; 08/28/19 06:04 AM.
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884349 08/28/19 06:41 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by caracole
Hi,
(Please excuse my English, feel free to correct my mistakes.)

Please keep in mind for your answer that my considerations here are just focusing on the "keyboard layer sensation/feeling" (sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones)

I currently have a digital Roland HP 204 piano bought in 2008.
It was a pretty good one at this moment. One of the first digital which was not too soft. But it's still far from a digital keyboard. I need to change...

I'm wondering what it does worth versus the new digital pianos from nowadays ?
What would the change cost to me ? For a second hand obviously but a quite recent one.

(I can't buy a digital because of my neighbors...)

I have tried hybrids : N1X, NU1X and NV10. It seems to be very good but it's mostly very expansive. The point that also bothers me is that electric things usually breaks down... And 5 year warranty is just a joke for 4000 €...
If I buy something 4000€, I need it to work at least 20 years ! And I can't buy a real piano. frown

So, what do you think ? Is it worthy to buy a second hand digital piano from nowadays ? Or just keep my Roland HP 204 frown ?
Thanks for any help !


Hi Caracole,

Digital pianos depreciate very quickly, so the solution is to buy a used model.
TBH, most digitals will last at least 10 years without much need for repair---and minor repairs might be required once or twice but nothing to break the bank.

As far as valuing your Roland, you can use the Ebay search tool. Select completed listings in the advanced filters section of the search tool in order to see how much others have sold your instrument in the last two years. You can also find the worth of any instrument you wish to purchase this way.

Obviously if you price at the instrument at the higher end, you might have to wait for a while before it gets sold or later reduce the price. Probably better to go this way than price it cheap and end up being bartered down further.

IMO, don't buy anything used that is older than 4 years. Try to get something that has been well looked after in a smoke free house with no animals.

Kind regards,

Doug.

Last edited by Doug M.; 08/28/19 06:42 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884353 08/28/19 06:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
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CyberGene Online Content
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Originally Posted by caracole
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Have you considered using software pianos? There are fantastic options right now such as Garritan CFX, VSL Steinway/CFX, as well as Pianoteq (if you like modeled pianos). You can control it through your HP 204 or you can buy a keyboard that you like. Many people seem to like the Kawai VPC1 which is a MIDI controller only, but you can also consider stage pianos to use them as controllers. I have used my Kawai ES7 with Garritan CFX Lite first and then upgraded to Garritan CFX and that was a great way to resurrect a piano which was good at the time but its sound compared to Garritan CFX was a joke.

Thanks for your reply.
But I don't think you understood my problem. It's weird because your answer is exactly the opposite of what i described : "Please keep in mind for your answer that my considerations here are just focusing on the "keyboard layer sensation/feeling" (sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones)". Is it a problem of English grammar/vocabulary ? I don't want the best sound of the world. I don't know how to say it in other ways frown I need to feel the key I push on. My problem is not a sound problem. It's a sensation one. II need to feel under my fingers a good response from the keyboard.

Well, you say "sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones". I understood that as "I don't care for speaker quality because I use headphones". It seems that you mean "I don't care about sound at all". Does that mean you can play without any sound at all, only pressing the keys for practice? smile JK

Well, you could've said you wanted the keyboard with the best keyboard feel, regardless of sound for under €4000, is that a better description of your inquiry now? If so, you should just research all the possible digital piano actions on the market, find pianos that use them and then purchase the cheapest one that has that keyboard. For instance, the Kawai GF is used in pianos such as MP11, MP11SE, CA78, CA98, etc. and since you care only about action, you can have the cheapest one, etc. However bear in mind everybody has his preferences about what a good and realistic hammer action emulation is and you would get opposing views. Which is why you should test the pianos yourself.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/28/19 06:51 AM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884357 08/28/19 06:56 AM
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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Addressing your concerns about the durability of digital pianos I can say that they are generally very durable, you should not worry about it at all, 5-years warranty is completely sufficient. If a digital piano doesn't break in its first month or two, it will usually work for decades to come without problem. Just the mechanical part may require some regulation from time to time (not often) in case of hybrids.

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884359 08/28/19 06:57 AM
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dmd Offline
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The only way I know of to find one that feels good to you is to actually play them.

You can get suggestions here but until you play them … you will not be sure.

I would start there.

Go to stores and play many of them.

Check out used ones and play them.

You want a specific option ? I would suggest the Kawai ES8.

You will get dozens of other suggestions.

Good Luck




Last edited by dmd; 08/28/19 06:59 AM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884384 08/28/19 08:22 AM
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The notion that digital pianos last for decades is absurd.
Mine is eleven years old and it has required sensor cleaning twice (once in warranty, once not), sensor pad replacements twice, hammer rail felt replacement once, lubrication three times.
It now requires another sensor cleaning to correct a loud G3 problem.
And my piano usage is light. Very light.

Decades with no problems???

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884386 08/28/19 08:31 AM
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I'd consider the Kawai ES8, Kawai MP11SE and if you don't like slab pianos the next steps up.


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Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884391 08/28/19 08:46 AM
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I would certainly recommend the MP11SE (I have one and it has a excellent touch/feel to it).

The only downside to the MP11SE is weight (50 LBS).

It can be handled but is challenging if you intend to move it around a lot.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: Doug M.] #2884393 08/28/19 08:49 AM
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caracole Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Doug M.


Hi Caracole,

Digital pianos depreciate very quickly, so the solution is to buy a used model.
TBH, most digitals will last at least 10 years without much need for repair---and minor repairs might be required once or twice but nothing to break the bank.

As far as valuing your Roland, you can use the Ebay search tool. Select completed listings in the advanced filters section of the search tool in order to see how much others have sold your instrument in the last two years. You can also find the worth of any instrument you wish to purchase this way.

Obviously if you price at the instrument at the higher end, you might have to wait for a while before it gets sold or later reduce the price. Probably better to go this way than price it cheap and end up being bartered down further.

IMO, don't buy anything used that is older than 4 years. Try to get something that has been well looked after in a smoke free house with no animals.

Kind regards,

Doug.



Hi Doug, thank you for your reply.
OK "used model" that's exactly what I meant by "second hand" sorry for inappropriate words !
OK thanks for the duration information. Mine is 11 yo and I don't have issues but I couldn't use one example for a general case.

I don't need to know the price of mine, it is not for sale. 4 yo is too old, I spoke about "digitals pianos of nowadays"
Thanks for the smoke/animals tip.

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884398 08/28/19 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The notion that digital pianos last for decades is absurd.
Mine is eleven years old and it has required sensor cleaning twice (once in warranty, once not), sensor pad replacements twice, hammer rail felt replacement once, lubrication three times.
It now requires another sensor cleaning to correct a loud G3 problem.
And my piano usage is light. Very light.

Decades with no problems???


Just so it doesn't happen to me, what have you got?
Originally Posted by caracole
Originally Posted by Doug M.


Hi Caracole,

Digital pianos depreciate very quickly, so the solution is to buy a used model.
TBH, most digitals will last at least 10 years without much need for repair---and minor repairs might be required once or twice but nothing to break the bank.

As far as valuing your Roland, you can use the Ebay search tool. Select completed listings in the advanced filters section of the search tool in order to see how much others have sold your instrument in the last two years. You can also find the worth of any instrument you wish to purchase this way.

Obviously if you price at the instrument at the higher end, you might have to wait for a while before it gets sold or later reduce the price. Probably better to go this way than price it cheap and end up being bartered down further.

IMO, don't buy anything used that is older than 4 years. Try to get something that has been well looked after in a smoke free house with no animals.

Kind regards,

Doug.



Hi Doug, thank you for your reply.
OK "used model" that's exactly what I meant by "second hand" sorry for inappropriate words !
OK thanks for the duration information. Mine is 11 yo and I don't have issues but I couldn't use one example for a general case.

I don't need to know the price of mine, it is not for sale. 4 yo is too old, I spoke about "digitals pianos of nowadays"
Thanks for the smoke/animals tip.


Hi Caracole,

I brought a 1 year old MP7 for £750: quite a good deal at the time (new £1,200). Ideally, I'd be looking for something <2 years old if possible, but if it were a hybrid piano, maybe I'd go older (especially if it were in good condition). For instance, I might buy a used N1 that's over 4 years old.

Some instruments are more prone to faults than others, and heavy playing can contribute to action issues. Also gigged instruments tend to get occasionally damaged due to transit or handling issues.

I brought a Yamaha PSR7000 and it was still going strong after 23 years (sold it to a French girl living in Ireland). I had to replace two sensor strips (each lasted 10 years) and the bill came to around £80 for each repair (£40 of it being labour). Not much to pay for 2 decades of use.

I think if you play very often (4-6 hours a day) then life-span on the action components might drop. However, getting components to fix issues is quite easy if you buy Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Korg, Casio etc. Maybe if you buy a very specialist instrument that not many people buy, the parts situation after a decade might not be so good.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: dmd] #2884404 08/28/19 09:17 AM
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caracole Offline OP
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by caracole
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Have you considered using software pianos? There are fantastic options right now such as Garritan CFX, VSL Steinway/CFX, as well as Pianoteq (if you like modeled pianos). You can control it through your HP 204 or you can buy a keyboard that you like. Many people seem to like the Kawai VPC1 which is a MIDI controller only, but you can also consider stage pianos to use them as controllers. I have used my Kawai ES7 with Garritan CFX Lite first and then upgraded to Garritan CFX and that was a great way to resurrect a piano which was good at the time but its sound compared to Garritan CFX was a joke.

Thanks for your reply.
But I don't think you understood my problem. It's weird because your answer is exactly the opposite of what i described : "Please keep in mind for your answer that my considerations here are just focusing on the "keyboard layer sensation/feeling" (sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones)". Is it a problem of English grammar/vocabulary ? I don't want the best sound of the world. I don't know how to say it in other ways frown I need to feel the key I push on. My problem is not a sound problem. It's a sensation one. II need to feel under my fingers a good response from the keyboard.

Well, you say "sound restitution is not important for me, I mostly play with headphones". I understood that as "I don't care for speaker quality because I use headphones". It seems that you mean "I don't care about sound at all". Does that mean you can play without any sound at all, only pressing the keys for practice? smile JK

Well, you could've said you wanted the keyboard with the best keyboard feel, regardless of sound for under €4000, is that a better description of your inquiry now? If so, you should just research all the possible digital piano actions on the market, find pianos that use them and then purchase the cheapest one that has that keyboard. For instance, the Kawai GF is used in pianos such as MP11, MP11SE, CA78, CA98, etc. and since you care only about action, you can have the cheapest one, etc. However bear in mind everybody has his preferences about what a good and realistic hammer action emulation is and you would get opposing views. Which is why you should test the pianos yourself.

Thanks for rephrasing. I think you understand correctly what I meant this time. I mean speakers is not an important point for me. Best keyboard feel (your own words) is my important point.

Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Addressing your concerns about the durability of digital pianos I can say that they are generally very durable, you should not worry about it at all, 5-years warranty is completely sufficient. If a digital piano doesn't break in its first month or two, it will usually work for decades to come without problem. Just the mechanical part may require some regulation from time to time (not often) in case of hybrids.

Thanks for your point of view on this problem.

Originally Posted by dmd
The only way I know of to find one that feels good to you is to actually play them.

You can get suggestions here but until you play them … you will not be sure.

I would start there.

Go to stores and play many of them.

Check out used ones and play them.

You want a specific option ? I would suggest the Kawai ES8.

You will get dozens of other suggestions.

Good Luck




Thanks for your answer. This one helps me.
I have tried many recent digital pianos. To my mind, all suck except hybrids and even them... I spent the whole time in the shop playing acoustic piano and leave the shop disgusted...
I should have stay focused on my purchase...
Thanks for Kawai ES8 suggestion.


Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The notion that digital pianos last for decades is absurd.
Mine is eleven years old and it has required sensor cleaning twice (once in warranty, once not), sensor pad replacements twice, hammer rail felt replacement once, lubrication three times.
It now requires another sensor cleaning to correct a loud G3 problem.
And my piano usage is light. Very light.

Decades with no problems???


Thank for your reply. I have the same point of view than you. As I thought everybody has is own experience and I don't believe neither in "decades with no problems". As already said in first post : I don't buy 4000€ electronic thing with no 20 years warranty.


Originally Posted by puremusic
I'd consider the Kawai ES8, Kawai MP11SE and if you don't like slab pianos the next steps up.


Thank for your answer. I couldn't find what slab piano means in my language frown

Originally Posted by dmd
I would certainly recommend the MP11SE (I have one and it has a excellent touch/feel to it).

The only downside to the MP11SE is weight (50 LBS).

It can be handled but is challenging if you intend to move it around a lot.


Thank for your answer and your suggestions.
I note it.

I will look for the models people showed me and come back with new questions. wink


To go back to my first post : it would be great if anyone who knows my HP 204 Roland could compare its keyboard feel with ES8, CA78 or MP11SE !

I just need to know if there is a lot of improvment since 11 years and then if I buy a bargain already used piano or if I keep my HP 204 Roland.

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: MacMacMac] #2884433 08/28/19 10:51 AM
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kj85 Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The notion that digital pianos last for decades is absurd.
Mine is eleven years old and it has required sensor cleaning twice (once in warranty, once not), sensor pad replacements twice, hammer rail felt replacement once, lubrication three times.
It now requires another sensor cleaning to correct a loud G3 problem.
And my piano usage is light. Very light.

Decades with no problems???



Originally Posted by Doug M.

I brought a Yamaha PSR7000 and it was still going strong after 23 years (sold it to a French girl living in Ireland). I had to replace two sensor strips (each lasted 10 years) and the bill came to around £80 for each repair (£40 of it being labour). Not much to pay for 2 decades of use.

I think if you play very often (4-6 hours a day) then life-span on the action components might drop. However, getting components to fix issues is quite easy if you buy Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Korg, Casio etc. Maybe if you buy a very specialist instrument that not many people buy, the parts situation after a decade might not be so good.


Are spares for 5-10 year old DPs really available that easily, and DPs serviced at such reasonable prices?

My Casio CDP-S100 is quite nice, but my choices narrowed down considerably due to warranty issues with brands like Roland that only operate in India through distributors. I didn't want to end up with a defective DP and no easy way to fix it.


Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884446 08/28/19 11:33 AM
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Yamaha sells parts for lots of their old models ... and many of those parts are the same as the ones on the newer models.

As for "reasonable" prices ...
If you have someone do the work you have to allow for $150 minimum labor.
And parts ... a broken white key costs $20 to replace the part.
My felt hammer cushion cost over $50 for a replacement.
Each octave of rubber contact/sensor strip cost $17.

Decide for yourself whether those are reasonable prices.

Over eleven years I've spent around $350 for two tech repairs, and around $150 on parts for do-it-myself repairs.
I exercised the warranty once for a loud-note problem. Nothing else was covered in warranty.

Yet ... I still want to replace the piano because the action feels old and worn. (Kind of like me.)

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: MacMacMac] #2884480 08/28/19 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Yamaha sells parts for lots of their old models ... and many of those parts are the same as the ones on the newer models.

As for "reasonable" prices ...
If you have someone do the work you have to allow for $150 minimum labor.
And parts ... a broken white key costs $20 to replace the part.
My felt hammer cushion cost over $50 for a replacement.
Each octave of rubber contact/sensor strip cost $17.

Decide for yourself whether those are reasonable prices.

Over eleven years I've spent around $350 for two tech repairs, and around $150 on parts for do-it-myself repairs.
I exercised the warranty once for a loud-note problem. Nothing else was covered in warranty.

Yet ... I still want to replace the piano because the action feels old and worn. (Kind of like me.)


Well, spending 10-20% of the replacement cost of a DP on repairs once every few years is reasonable. This becomes more and more important the pricier the DP is.

For a $10,000 DP, I'd want to ensure that it works for the next 8-10 years. For a $1,000 DP, I might stop caring around year four or five and simply get a replacement if it breaks down, just like I do with PCs.

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: kj85] #2884483 08/28/19 12:57 PM
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My thinking is closely aligned with yours ...
Originally Posted by kj85
Spending 10-20% of the replacement cost of a DP on repairs once every few years is reasonable. This becomes more and more important the pricier the DP is.

For a $10,000 DP, I'd want to ensure that it works for the next 8-10 years. For a $1,000 DP, I might stop caring around year four or five and simply get a replacement ...
My piano cost $2500 all-in. So my $500 repair cost was not too terrible. But more than I expected.

If not for the reduced action performance I'd keep this piano for a while longer.
It's not clear how much the feel of the action has deteriorated from wear vs.how much my expecations and perceptions have changed. But I do want a new one.

Do I cheap out and get a new under-$3000 piano? Or do I jump into the $8000 to $10000 range for a top-notch action?

Part of the decision (up to now) has been: Will I get more than just a better action? What about the sound?
I want to get rid of the VSTs. I want the new piano to sound like a piano all on its own.
If an N1X won't do that I don't see why I should buy?

Now, though, there's this other concern: How long will the new piano last? Will it feel like crap after ten years?

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: caracole] #2884496 08/28/19 01:30 PM
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tblb Offline
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What he want is :

Does someone know his old digital piano (Roland HP 204), especially the touch feeling ? And can he have a used digital piano for about 1000€ that worth the upgrade concerning the touch feeling.

He don’t care about the sound , like you said, pianoteq and garritean Cfx are here.


He’s french like me, we have discussed about what he want, but unfortunately our French forum about piano is much smaller than piano world , so he thought that perhaps here know what kind of touch feeling he has and what used piano worth the upgrade for about 1000€


Last edited by tblb; 08/28/19 01:31 PM.
Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: tblb] #2884515 08/28/19 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by caracole
I couldn't find what slab piano means in my language frown


A "slab" is a digital piano that is not built into a console/cabinet. Basically, another word for portable/stage pianos.

Originally Posted by tblb
What he want is :

Does someone know his old digital piano (Roland HP 204), especially the touch feeling ? And can he have a used digital piano for about 1000€ that worth the upgrade concerning the touch feeling.


Apparently, the HP204 comes with the PHA II action (with escapement). So, he wants a used/second-hand digital piano for around 1000€ with an action/touch/feeling that is comparatively better?

This is a difficult question because used digitals can be priced differently in different places. The only thing people can suggest is good actions at different price ranges for new pianos. It is then up to him to see if one of these pianos is available in the used/second-hand market at a price that is acceptable to him.

Re: I need some advices for possible purchase. [Re: MacMacMac] #2884519 08/28/19 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Do I cheap out and get a new under-$3000 piano?


My limited experience suggests that, unlike CPUs and GPUs, the pace of change in the DP market is positively glacial within a given price band. Perhaps a slightly better action and a slightly better sound engine is introduced compared to a model from 5-10 years back.

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