Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Polyphony dropout and abrupt sound glitch with Kawai CA78

Hi All,
Opening a separate thread to address the issue I have been facing since last two month
I have been observing this sound glitch issue while playing CA78 in pianist mode. the sound glitch occurs randomly specially when excessive damper pedal is used.
https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0NKn-3d7ZL1a5rBDcIxirakBg#Sound_and_midi
Please check at 1:34 . you will observe two sound glitches.
There is a midi file also . both audio and midi files were created in my DAW using line out and midi out of kawai. Please ignore playing I was just trying to replicate the issue

When I play the midi file back to CA78 I do not get the sound glitch again

When I contacted distributor and kawai I am told that this is happening due to excessive use of damper pedal and they ask me to use damper pedal less frequently. I do sometimes use damper pedal excessively but the same I do with following keyboards/piano which I have at present - Yamaha YDP164, Korg Kronos, Korg PA700,Roland XPs10, and Several piano VST I have . I have never observed abrupt sound cut like the one in the sound file. for debugging ,

I also believe that if I am reaching polyphony limit then the first note played should drop instead of newly played notes. the cut should be smooth or less audible compared to the newly played notes that it would not be recognisable by player. this is called last note priority and generally a default mode with polyphony implementation. to see how this is implemented in the other keyboard/VST I have, I pressed damper pedal for the entire duration of song with these keyboards and was not able to encounter abrupt sound glitch the one I get with CA78.


I had asked Kawai and its distributor to check but they keep on telling me to use damper pedal less frequently. Which is disappointing as they could have checked this in their lab or the units they have.

requesting other forum members who have CA78 to try and play in pianist mode with increased pedal use and share if they observe the identical glitch. also if they have other piano /keyboard does this happen with that as well ?
Any help or input in this regard would be highly appreciated.

Hello Vikas,



I believe I already explained this point to you via PM, however for the purpose of the thread:

When playing back MIDI data (e.g. from a DAW) to the CA78 in "Pianist mode", the notes will produce a sound, however the 88-key resonance modelling is not generated. I expect this may be why you cannot reproduce the glitch when playing back the MIDI file.



The CA98, NV10/NV5, and ATX3/AURES instruments also use the same sound engine as the CA78.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hey, I've had 2 CA 78's and both had this annoying fault. It's 100% not a polyphony limit issue, as I've had it happen after playing 4/5 notes. I've kinda just got used to it over the months and haven't even reported it to Kawai. Even if you're never raising the pedal ever, this still shouldn't be a thing, so whoever from Kawai is telling you this, is fobbing you off.

If this is the only issue that you have with your piano, then you've been a lucky guy, even though I appreciate how annoying it is. Don't ever expect Kawai to find a solution to this, or even admit that it's a fault. We've all paid £2000 plus to beta test their instruments. You can spend half your life sending them reports of faults, or just try find a way to enjoy what is potentially a decent piano.

Ask for a refund or just live with it, and it will save you another couple of months of bs from Kawai. I hope another Kawai user can offer you more hope, but don't hold your breath.

Hi James, so are you saying that the CA78 (and other models with the same engine) in Pianist Mode is unable to replay what you recorded in MIDI format, with the same resonance effects activated? This would be a very strange limitation...

Hello Blue72, welcome back to the forum.



I don't believe this is related to the "bell like sound" complaint you had a few months ago (thread here for those who are curious). However, if you are able to provide a recording that reproduces the glitch Vikas has experienced, I will certainly take a look.

Kind regards,
James
x

Yes, that's correct.

Kind regards,
James
x

And what happens with previous engines (like HI-XL and PHI)? If, for example, I used Cabinet Resonance at 10 to record a midi file, I would hear that resonance in a following playback of the same midi file?

Hi James,

I'd love to provide you with a recording, but it's a sporadic fault, and as I only own a 32gb usb, the piano acts all buggy if I try record more than one song, approx 5 mins. The guy from Kawai asked me to try a smaller usb but I haven't got round to getting one yet. The "polyphony" issue only happens randomly, and rarely within 5 minutes of me starting to play.

I never implied this issue had anything to do with the bell problem I was having. I was just making a few general comments on what a frustrating instrument this is. I have also experienced the fault that the OP is having. Having now owned one for over 6 months I could write a short book on its problems. I've found a way to make it playable, but with much reduced options than what I thought I was getting.

Just for your information, James, Kawai replaced my original piano and the man from Kawai was a gentleman, but this new piano is every bit as bad as my original, possibly worse.

I've either been very unlucky in getting 2 dodgy pianos, or Kawai has serious issues. I don't want to hijack the OP's thread so I'll maybe bump my old thread and let off some Kawai induced rage.

Yes, that's correct, and this is also the case when the CA98/CA78 etc. is using Sound mode.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hello Blue72,



I also use a 32gb USB stick (Sandisk Cruiser Fit USB2.0), but have never experienced any problems with it. Please try the usual tips such as formatting the stick in the piano itself etc.



Please send me a message detailing some of the issues you have experienced/are experiencing, and I will try to help you.



I'm glad to read that you were well looked after.



Again, if you feel the need to vent your frustration, please feel free to send me a message.



Again, if you feel the need to vent your frustration, please feel free to send me a message.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks!

So, Pianist Mode in the SK-EX Rendering engine still needs some more polishing in the software algorithms... I hope Kawai is working on this and will release soon a new firmware with the bugs fixed. I don't see why the DP should not be able to replay a midi file in Pianist Mode with the same resonance effects used while playing. About the polyphony problem, it's true that not many people play long sessions with the sustain pedal depressed, but it's not right that, when max polyphony is reached, the engine could drop new notes instead of the oldest ones. I think both of these issues can be fixed at software level.

exactly what my point is that pianist mode is not refined. users who are buying ca78/98 are paying for a half baked cake
if the instruments used to drop newly played notes after reaching polyphony life would not be easy for people who played instruments with 32/64 note polyphony few years back. I think kawai is not accepting here that the sound generator has not been programmed in efficient way. I referred three different company product not exhibiting the drop behaviour ( Yamaha, Korg and Roland ).
these things can be fixed at software level and with a new firmware or patch. if a company cannot even create a simple map to provide compatibility with its app with its product like CA78/98 i can understand what kind of limited bandwidth or resource the team is having. is this a reason they are not even accepting a bug in programming?when asked whether the polyphony implementation is first note priority or last note priority I am told that it is internal technical information and cannot be shared.


Will need inputs from more members here who have experience with polyphony implementation and if they observe issue like the one I have shared with their keyboard/piano?

I am aligned too, that if polyphony limit is reached then instead of newer notes older notes should drop. Have not been able to agree with this thing hence turned to forum for more inputs. Can you please play and record while the sustain pedal is pressed continuously and share if you observe the sound glitch similar to one shared by me. would appreciate your help.

Does this ever happen playing regular music ? What pieces are you playing that prescribe continuous sustain ?

Sorry, as a CA98 user, I haven't fully understood what's kind of problem in this topic.
Is voice interrupted if many notes are pressed simultaneously with sustain pedal? and exceeding the maximum polyphonic number?
Or happened when playing some special MIDI files from DAW to CA78 through MIDI/USB in?

Hi Morten
I play mostly Indian songs on piano . These songs are sometimes based on raga which requires long sustained notes
i do not use continuous sustain but longer sustain duration than western classical pieces.
With that, the concern is not just using sustain pedal and reaching polyphony limit. Concern is also the way ca78 has been programmed. Have been playing piano on keyboards with sustain pedal for quite some time and have never observed such things even with keyboards with 32 note polyphony

Ok - it was an indirect way of asking if this was a problem that actually occurs while playing real music or only a technical issue seen when actively provoking it.
Sounds really odd that something like this was overlooked - on the surface it seems a very simple problem.

I hesitate to suggest this as you have a perfectly good and brand new piano which should do what you want, but obviously this issue is causing you quite some angst and I'm assuming it just doesn't sound right when you play raga. So perhaps you should consider getting and using a VST? For example, Pianoteq has 256 voice polyphony and you can download the free trial and make sure that it behaves gracefully when you've sustained 256 notes, that it handles the 257th properly.

I would jettison this piano. It's defective. Maybe it's a manufacturing defect. Maybe it's a design defect. But it doesn't matter which. The piano is not behaving properly.

Ya paid good money. Ya got a no good piano. Take it back.

Just a curiosity: does this problem occurs when you use the previous HI-XL engine too?