2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
51 members (Brendan, anotherscott, Bluthendorfer, Chrispy, CharlesXX, 18 invisible), 546 guests, and 412 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Used N3 vs. New N1X
#2883196 08/25/19 06:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,755
P
Pete14 Online Content OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,755
I wonder if a used N3 would still be a better value than a new N1X; especially as a controller for VST’s (running through on-board speakers).
The N1X has a built-in audio interface -which comes in handy- but the N3 has 12 speakers and perhaps is also ‘helped’ by its more-conventional form factor.



P.S.

I noticed that the YPT-360 ($179.00) also has a built-in audio interface. I wonder if it’s the same one used on the CLP/N1X/NU1X. If so, then I guess Yamaha went a little cheap on the interface. I mean, if they can stick it into a piano worth $179.00.........

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883200 08/25/19 07:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,008
N
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,008
For VSTs I would go for N3.

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883208 08/25/19 08:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by Pete14
I wonder if a used N3 would still be a better value than a new N1X; especially as a controller for VST’s (running through on-board speakers).
The N1X has a built-in audio interface -which comes in handy- but the N3 has 12 speakers and perhaps is also ‘helped’ by its more-conventional form factor.

If you don't use headphones most of the time as I do, then I would agree with Nordmus and go with the used N3.

Originally Posted by Pete14
I noticed that the YPT-360 ($179.00) also has a built-in audio interface. I wonder if it’s the same one used on the CLP/N1X/NU1X. If so, then I guess Yamaha went a little cheap on the interface. I mean, if they can stick it into a piano worth $179.00.........

You can get an actually top-of-the-line RME audio interface and double-shielded audio cables add this to the cost of a used N3, and have a better overall VST solution than N1X for even cheaper.

Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Tyrone Slothrop #2883211 08/25/19 08:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 367
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


Hi Tyrone,

When you conduct your test could you post it so we can do a blind comparison? I would be very interested in the results, as everyone might hear things slightly differently.


Yamaha N1X, P-515.
Genelec 8331 monitors and 7350 sub.
VI’s: Garritan CFX, VSL Bösendorfer Upright, and VSL Blüthner 1895. Pianoteq.
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
JJHLH #2883214 08/25/19 08:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by JJHLH
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


Hi Tyrone,

When you conduct your test could you post it so we can do a blind comparison? I would be very interested in the results, as everyone might hear things slightly differently.

What a wonderful idea! Those tests are always fun. I will be sure to do that. A head-to-head won't be able to compare latency though, but it should compare audio quality.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883221 08/25/19 08:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,755
P
Pete14 Online Content OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,755
I assume that the “double-shielded” cables will eliminate any noise (interference)?
I’ve compared using conventional 1/8 audio in and my P-515’s built-in audio interface, and yes there is some ‘noise’ when using the audio in, and no noise with the audio interface. I suppose this is expected, but I must say the noise is very subtle, and I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.

Also, would a thunderbolt external interface be overkill?

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883226 08/25/19 08:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by Pete14
I assume that the “double-shielded” cables will eliminate any noise (interference)?
I’ve compared using conventional 1/8 audio in and my P-515’s built-in audio interface, and yes there is some ‘noise’ when using the audio in, and no noise with the audio interface. I suppose this is expected, but I must say the noise is very subtle, and I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.

Also, would a thunderbolt external interface be overkill?

Double-shielded audio cables have a grounded foil shield surrounding a thick copper ground surrounding the core. More important than this though is to ensure that the system is properly grounded (so there are no ground loops). Between properly grounding and double-shielded cables, this should eliminate any hum. Hiss though comes from somewhere else.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883230 08/25/19 09:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by Pete14
I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.

This is a good article about how some of the things that get done actually can make the audio quality worse (and why not to use large ferrite beads on audio cables).


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883238 08/25/19 09:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,755
P
Pete14 Online Content OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,755
Good info; Thank you.
There are many options out there, and with options also come claims that may or may not hold up.
There’s also the ‘overkill’ component. For example, 48KHz vs. 192KHz; some claim the difference is perceivable yet most do not (as it relates to real time performance -VST- not necessarily recording). But even for recording purposes I wonder if there’s any perceivable improvement considering how taxing 192KHz can be on resources vs. 48KHz.

Now, back to thunderbolt vs. USB: technically there should be ‘lower’ latency with thunderbolt, right? But is it significant (perceivable) enough to justify the higher price?

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Tyrone Slothrop #2883239 08/25/19 09:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 293
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
I wonder if a used N3 would still be a better value than a new N1X; especially as a controller for VST’s (running through on-board speakers).
The N1X has a built-in audio interface -which comes in handy- but the N3 has 12 speakers and perhaps is also ‘helped’ by its more-conventional form factor.

If you don't use headphones most of the time as I do, then I would agree with Nordmus and go with the used N3.

Originally Posted by Pete14
I noticed that the YPT-360 ($179.00) also has a built-in audio interface. I wonder if it’s the same one used on the CLP/N1X/NU1X. If so, then I guess Yamaha went a little cheap on the interface. I mean, if they can stick it into a piano worth $179.00.........

You can get an actually top-of-the-line RME audio interface and double-shielded audio cables add this to the cost of a used N3, and have a better overall VST solution than N1X for even cheaper.

Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


I used Yamaha/Steinberg Ur242 interface before upgraded to RME ADI2 DAC for VSL on CA98.
Actually DA on Ur242 is better than the one built in N1x a little.(44.1/24bit vs 16bit)
RME ADI2 gives me more clear, dynamic, vibration and frequency extend than Ur242.
Of course, the cost is almost 5 times. Any increase of sound playback needs more money even small:(

Btw, RME ADI2 pro is unnecessary for VST users, and AD is waste. What we need is only DAC.

For the topic, N3 has more powerful output than N1X if you usually play with speakers instead of headphone.

Last edited by robinlb; 08/25/19 09:40 AM.

CA98+ART RM5~~RME ADI2 DAC
VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883240 08/25/19 09:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,082
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,082
Don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but if using an early N3 with software and an intention to route audio through the N3’s onboard sound system then I have two words of warning: Noise Gate.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883242 08/25/19 09:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by Pete14
Now, back to thunderbolt vs. USB: technically there should be ‘lower’ latency with thunderbolt, right? But is it significant (perceivable) enough to justify the higher price?

I don't know but if I were to guess, it it will be a difference that couldn't be noticed without instrumentation and measurement.

Also, are you talking about using thunderbolt between the audio interface and the computer? If you worry about this sort of thing, you can always get a PCIe based audio interface. Then you'd have the highest bandwidth pathway between the audio interface and your PC. RME makes those too.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
EssBrace #2883245 08/25/19 09:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but if using an early N3 with software and an intention to route audio through the N3’s onboard sound system then I have two words of warning: Noise Gate.

Oooh. Good point. On my N1X, one can turn off the noise gate using the control panel. Didn't realise that might not be possible on the older N3.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Tyrone Slothrop #2883258 08/25/19 10:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,945
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,945
That article makes some decent points ... but also makes some clear mistakes.

Power cord inductance is not an issue. Yet they're hyping a Magnum power cord. Snake oil.

Better power outlets are not an issue. Yet they choose to parrot that old myth.

They say that shielding of speaker cables is a waste of money and will probably compromise their performance. Finally some truth.

They say that shielding of power cables serves no useful purpose. Another truth.

In total ... it's a mixed bag.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.
This is a good article about how some of the things that get done actually can make the audio quality worse (and why not to use large ferrite beads on audio cables).


Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883277 08/25/19 11:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,893
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,893
I doubt it N3 can be made to sound good with VST-s through its own speaker system. You basically pay for a speaker system that’s optimized to sound excellent with its own sound only to use it as a MIDI keyboard and a suboptimal sound system. It simply doesn’t make sense.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883280 08/25/19 11:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,945
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,945
I agree, CG. And ... if you're paying money on the scale of an N3 ... why use virtual instruments? If the piano doesn't sound good on its own, don't buy it.

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883289 08/25/19 12:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,519
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,519
AvantGrand pianos comes with a more than stereo sound reproduction system. If you plan to use a VST, you will be limited by the stereo recording. If you are limited by stereo, you would better buy the N1X.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Frédéric L #2883292 08/25/19 12:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,813
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
AvantGrand pianos comes with a more than stereo sound reproduction system. If you plan to use a VST, you will be limited by the stereo recording. If you are limited by stereo, you would better buy the N1X.

What does the N3 (not N3X) have that is a more than stereo sound reproduction system?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883293 08/25/19 12:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,288
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,288
N3 can be excellent value. Used units don't come to market frequently but I have seen them priced in the $6k region on rare ocassion. Normal ask prices for good units are $8k and much higher. Downside is huge size for moving and placement; I also don't see people raving about the speakers for VIs or playing regular music.

**If you are using headphones, Yamaha's new binaural CFX is quite popular here. CyberGene seems to ignore his VIs these days, for example. That would be a benefit of the newer X series.

** I have seen people use the n3 as a controller for external VI but using external monitors (e.g. Philip Johnston videos with Garritan CFX).

I suspect the n3 sounds have some multi-channel processing to optimise the odd speaker set up. With a VI you can only send in a 2 channel stereo sound and the piano spits out the sound. Alternatively, I suppose you could work around that with Pianoteq's 5 channel option, rewire your own electronic crossover and amps, and spend a lot of time optimizing the system. That is easy for Yamaha but not easy for the home-gamer.

2-channel audio is popular with VIs and monitors and much easier to set-up than multi-channel. So I would strongly recommend 2-channel monitors for your VIs. Better yet, if you like the new binaural CFX, maybe you can ditch the external VIs entirely.

Below is a recent thread speculating on the AvantGrand noise gate with external VIs

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2708818/avantgrand-noise-gate.html

Today, the best USB interfaces perform as well as the best ThunderBolt interfaces do. PCIe is the very best but most expensive so usually for professional audio types. There are not many ThunderBolt interfaces and several have broken software drivers so do your research. A large percentage of USB interfaces use similar software from the same third-party developers so have similar mediocre performance.

Latency is principally a function of good interface software and a good, optimised PC. RME BabyFace USB is a top consumer unit with the best software but is over $600. Zoom makes a cheap interface that can perform well but I see some people have difficulty getting the drivers to work on their computers. Both companies make their own drivers.

Frankly, getting latency below say 64 samples requires big investment in computer and interface. But the returns are diminishing as there are so many parts of the latency chain you can't change (e.g. time for sensors inside keyboard to scan and transmit data, lag of serial MIDI cable or keyboard's USB processing, time it takes sound to move from your speakers to your ears, etc.).

If you play big chords rapidly, slow DIN MIDI cable can't keep up regardless of your interface/computer. MIDI protocol has no speed limit so using a USB cable out of a piano rather than DIN cable MIGHT resolve some of this type of speed issue. However, I have never seen any tests showing that is the case. For example, if your keyboard passes raw sensor data to a MIDI controller limited by DIN MIDI cable specs, then to the USB controller board, USB and DIN MIDI speed differences would be negligable.

Headphones reduce latency and maybe Yamaha has optimised internal sound processing that reduces latency to levels you can't touch with any interface.

You can see a huge interface shootout in the link below:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...e-low-latency-performance-data-base.html

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X
Pete14 #2883298 08/25/19 12:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 150
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 150
N3 speakers each correspond to the different sampling points of the CFIIIS grand. This gives it a more realistic spatial quality, much more so than stereo imaging alone.

I'm quite taken with the form factor of the N3... what a beautiful instrument. Yeah, I'm a skin-deep kinda guy, I guess. :p

Don't flame me here, but I personally think the sounds of these pianos - even the older N3 - are plenty good enough and I don't see much of a need to fuss with virtual instruments, especially if it means losing that spatial quality sound I mentioned above. Once you have it, you don't wanna lose it.


Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
Yamaha MOX8
Roland FP-10
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Hammer (weight) time
by Fleer - 08/10/20 08:31 PM
Power's out!
by Sam S - 08/10/20 07:19 PM
Study buddy
by Flygbladet - 08/10/20 07:00 PM
Need quick help (Young Chang)
by John Sbraga - 08/10/20 02:59 PM
Study-buddy
by Flygbladet - 08/10/20 02:51 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,833
Posts2,990,383
Members98,098
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4