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Used N3 vs. New N1X #2883196
08/25/19 06:33 AM
08/25/19 06:33 AM
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Pete14 Offline OP
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I wonder if a used N3 would still be a better value than a new N1X; especially as a controller for VST’s (running through on-board speakers).
The N1X has a built-in audio interface -which comes in handy- but the N3 has 12 speakers and perhaps is also ‘helped’ by its more-conventional form factor.



P.S.

I noticed that the YPT-360 ($179.00) also has a built-in audio interface. I wonder if it’s the same one used on the CLP/N1X/NU1X. If so, then I guess Yamaha went a little cheap on the interface. I mean, if they can stick it into a piano worth $179.00.........

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Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883200
08/25/19 07:33 AM
08/25/19 07:33 AM
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For VSTs I would go for N3.

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883208
08/25/19 08:06 AM
08/25/19 08:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,113
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I wonder if a used N3 would still be a better value than a new N1X; especially as a controller for VST’s (running through on-board speakers).
The N1X has a built-in audio interface -which comes in handy- but the N3 has 12 speakers and perhaps is also ‘helped’ by its more-conventional form factor.

If you don't use headphones most of the time as I do, then I would agree with Nordmus and go with the used N3.

Originally Posted by Pete14
I noticed that the YPT-360 ($179.00) also has a built-in audio interface. I wonder if it’s the same one used on the CLP/N1X/NU1X. If so, then I guess Yamaha went a little cheap on the interface. I mean, if they can stick it into a piano worth $179.00.........

You can get an actually top-of-the-line RME audio interface and double-shielded audio cables add this to the cost of a used N3, and have a better overall VST solution than N1X for even cheaper.

Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2883211
08/25/19 08:28 AM
08/25/19 08:28 AM
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JJHLH Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


Hi Tyrone,

When you conduct your test could you post it so we can do a blind comparison? I would be very interested in the results, as everyone might hear things slightly differently.


Yamaha N1X, P-515. Garritan CFX. Genelec 8331 monitors.
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: JJHLH] #2883214
08/25/19 08:31 AM
08/25/19 08:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by JJHLH
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


Hi Tyrone,

When you conduct your test could you post it so we can do a blind comparison? I would be very interested in the results, as everyone might hear things slightly differently.

What a wonderful idea! Those tests are always fun. I will be sure to do that. A head-to-head won't be able to compare latency though, but it should compare audio quality.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883221
08/25/19 08:52 AM
08/25/19 08:52 AM
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Posts: 1,865
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Pete14 Offline OP
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I assume that the “double-shielded” cables will eliminate any noise (interference)?
I’ve compared using conventional 1/8 audio in and my P-515’s built-in audio interface, and yes there is some ‘noise’ when using the audio in, and no noise with the audio interface. I suppose this is expected, but I must say the noise is very subtle, and I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.

Also, would a thunderbolt external interface be overkill?

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883226
08/25/19 08:59 AM
08/25/19 08:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,113
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I assume that the “double-shielded” cables will eliminate any noise (interference)?
I’ve compared using conventional 1/8 audio in and my P-515’s built-in audio interface, and yes there is some ‘noise’ when using the audio in, and no noise with the audio interface. I suppose this is expected, but I must say the noise is very subtle, and I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.

Also, would a thunderbolt external interface be overkill?

Double-shielded audio cables have a grounded foil shield surrounding a thick copper ground surrounding the core. More important than this though is to ensure that the system is properly grounded (so there are no ground loops). Between properly grounding and double-shielded cables, this should eliminate any hum. Hiss though comes from somewhere else.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883230
08/25/19 09:10 AM
08/25/19 09:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,113
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Posts: 7,113
Originally Posted by Pete14
I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.

This is a good article about how some of the things that get done actually can make the audio quality worse (and why not to use large ferrite beads on audio cables).


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883238
08/25/19 09:36 AM
08/25/19 09:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,865
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Pete14 Offline OP
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Good info; Thank you.
There are many options out there, and with options also come claims that may or may not hold up.
There’s also the ‘overkill’ component. For example, 48KHz vs. 192KHz; some claim the difference is perceivable yet most do not (as it relates to real time performance -VST- not necessarily recording). But even for recording purposes I wonder if there’s any perceivable improvement considering how taxing 192KHz can be on resources vs. 48KHz.

Now, back to thunderbolt vs. USB: technically there should be ‘lower’ latency with thunderbolt, right? But is it significant (perceivable) enough to justify the higher price?

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2883239
08/25/19 09:38 AM
08/25/19 09:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 155
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robinlb Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
I wonder if a used N3 would still be a better value than a new N1X; especially as a controller for VST’s (running through on-board speakers).
The N1X has a built-in audio interface -which comes in handy- but the N3 has 12 speakers and perhaps is also ‘helped’ by its more-conventional form factor.

If you don't use headphones most of the time as I do, then I would agree with Nordmus and go with the used N3.

Originally Posted by Pete14
I noticed that the YPT-360 ($179.00) also has a built-in audio interface. I wonder if it’s the same one used on the CLP/N1X/NU1X. If so, then I guess Yamaha went a little cheap on the interface. I mean, if they can stick it into a piano worth $179.00.........

You can get an actually top-of-the-line RME audio interface and double-shielded audio cables add this to the cost of a used N3, and have a better overall VST solution than N1X for even cheaper.

Although I have an N1X with a built-in Steinberg interface, the new DAW workstation I'm having custom-built for me will have an RME BabyFace Pro audio interface, and I will likely be using that instead of the built-in Steinberg interface (I will conduct a little comparison test for myself first and make sure that the Steinberg isn't better, for some unknown reason than the RME Babyface Pro).


I used Yamaha/Steinberg Ur242 interface before upgraded to RME ADI2 DAC for VSL on CA98.
Actually DA on Ur242 is better than the one built in N1x a little.(44.1/24bit vs 16bit)
RME ADI2 gives me more clear, dynamic, vibration and frequency extend than Ur242.
Of course, the cost is almost 5 times. Any increase of sound playback needs more money even small:(

Btw, RME ADI2 pro is unnecessary for VST users, and AD is waste. What we need is only DAC.

For the topic, N3 has more powerful output than N1X if you usually play with speakers instead of headphone.

Last edited by robinlb; 08/25/19 09:40 AM.

CA98~~RME ADI2 DAC~~VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883240
08/25/19 09:39 AM
08/25/19 09:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,798
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but if using an early N3 with software and an intention to route audio through the N3’s onboard sound system then I have two words of warning: Noise Gate.


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883242
08/25/19 09:41 AM
08/25/19 09:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,113
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Now, back to thunderbolt vs. USB: technically there should be ‘lower’ latency with thunderbolt, right? But is it significant (perceivable) enough to justify the higher price?

I don't know but if I were to guess, it it will be a difference that couldn't be noticed without instrumentation and measurement.

Also, are you talking about using thunderbolt between the audio interface and the computer? If you worry about this sort of thing, you can always get a PCIe based audio interface. Then you'd have the highest bandwidth pathway between the audio interface and your PC. RME makes those too.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: EssBrace] #2883245
08/25/19 09:43 AM
08/25/19 09:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,113
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but if using an early N3 with software and an intention to route audio through the N3’s onboard sound system then I have two words of warning: Noise Gate.

Oooh. Good point. On my N1X, one can turn off the noise gate using the control panel. Didn't realise that might not be possible on the older N3.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2883258
08/25/19 10:22 AM
08/25/19 10:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,464
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Raleigh, North Carolina
That article makes some decent points ... but also makes some clear mistakes.

Power cord inductance is not an issue. Yet they're hyping a Magnum power cord. Snake oil.

Better power outlets are not an issue. Yet they choose to parrot that old myth.

They say that shielding of speaker cables is a waste of money and will probably compromise their performance. Finally some truth.

They say that shielding of power cables serves no useful purpose. Another truth.

In total ... it's a mixed bag.
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Pete14
I am using a ‘cheap’ cable.
This is a good article about how some of the things that get done actually can make the audio quality worse (and why not to use large ferrite beads on audio cables).


Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883277
08/25/19 11:21 AM
08/25/19 11:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,206
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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I doubt it N3 can be made to sound good with VST-s through its own speaker system. You basically pay for a speaker system that’s optimized to sound excellent with its own sound only to use it as a MIDI keyboard and a suboptimal sound system. It simply doesn’t make sense.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883280
08/25/19 11:30 AM
08/25/19 11:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,464
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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I agree, CG. And ... if you're paying money on the scale of an N3 ... why use virtual instruments? If the piano doesn't sound good on its own, don't buy it.

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883289
08/25/19 12:03 PM
08/25/19 12:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,138
France
Frédéric L Offline
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AvantGrand pianos comes with a more than stereo sound reproduction system. If you plan to use a VST, you will be limited by the stereo recording. If you are limited by stereo, you would better buy the N1X.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Frédéric L] #2883292
08/25/19 12:08 PM
08/25/19 12:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,113
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
AvantGrand pianos comes with a more than stereo sound reproduction system. If you plan to use a VST, you will be limited by the stereo recording. If you are limited by stereo, you would better buy the N1X.

What does the N3 (not N3X) have that is a more than stereo sound reproduction system?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883293
08/25/19 12:10 PM
08/25/19 12:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,486
深水埗區
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newer player Online content
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深水埗區
N3 can be excellent value. Used units don't come to market frequently but I have seen them priced in the $6k region on rare ocassion. Normal ask prices for good units are $8k and much higher. Downside is huge size for moving and placement; I also don't see people raving about the speakers for VIs or playing regular music.

**If you are using headphones, Yamaha's new binaural CFX is quite popular here. CyberGene seems to ignore his VIs these days, for example. That would be a benefit of the newer X series.

** I have seen people use the n3 as a controller for external VI but using external monitors (e.g. Philip Johnston videos with Garritan CFX).

I suspect the n3 sounds have some multi-channel processing to optimise the odd speaker set up. With a VI you can only send in a 2 channel stereo sound and the piano spits out the sound. Alternatively, I suppose you could work around that with Pianoteq's 5 channel option, rewire your own electronic crossover and amps, and spend a lot of time optimizing the system. That is easy for Yamaha but not easy for the home-gamer.

2-channel audio is popular with VIs and monitors and much easier to set-up than multi-channel. So I would strongly recommend 2-channel monitors for your VIs. Better yet, if you like the new binaural CFX, maybe you can ditch the external VIs entirely.

Below is a recent thread speculating on the AvantGrand noise gate with external VIs

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2708818/avantgrand-noise-gate.html

Today, the best USB interfaces perform as well as the best ThunderBolt interfaces do. PCIe is the very best but most expensive so usually for professional audio types. There are not many ThunderBolt interfaces and several have broken software drivers so do your research. A large percentage of USB interfaces use similar software from the same third-party developers so have similar mediocre performance.

Latency is principally a function of good interface software and a good, optimised PC. RME BabyFace USB is a top consumer unit with the best software but is over $600. Zoom makes a cheap interface that can perform well but I see some people have difficulty getting the drivers to work on their computers. Both companies make their own drivers.

Frankly, getting latency below say 64 samples requires big investment in computer and interface. But the returns are diminishing as there are so many parts of the latency chain you can't change (e.g. time for sensors inside keyboard to scan and transmit data, lag of serial MIDI cable or keyboard's USB processing, time it takes sound to move from your speakers to your ears, etc.).

If you play big chords rapidly, slow DIN MIDI cable can't keep up regardless of your interface/computer. MIDI protocol has no speed limit so using a USB cable out of a piano rather than DIN cable MIGHT resolve some of this type of speed issue. However, I have never seen any tests showing that is the case. For example, if your keyboard passes raw sensor data to a MIDI controller limited by DIN MIDI cable specs, then to the USB controller board, USB and DIN MIDI speed differences would be negligable.

Headphones reduce latency and maybe Yamaha has optimised internal sound processing that reduces latency to levels you can't touch with any interface.

You can see a huge interface shootout in the link below:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...e-low-latency-performance-data-base.html

Re: Used N3 vs. New N1X [Re: Pete14] #2883298
08/25/19 12:23 PM
08/25/19 12:23 PM
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Posts: 133
Great State of Texas
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vara411 Offline
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N3 speakers each correspond to the different sampling points of the CFIIIS grand. This gives it a more realistic spatial quality, much more so than stereo imaging alone.

I'm quite taken with the form factor of the N3... what a beautiful instrument. Yeah, I'm a skin-deep kinda guy, I guess. :p

Don't flame me here, but I personally think the sounds of these pianos - even the older N3 - are plenty good enough and I don't see much of a need to fuss with virtual instruments, especially if it means losing that spatial quality sound I mentioned above. Once you have it, you don't wanna lose it.


Yamaha AvantGrand N3X
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