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Aphantasia & drawing #2882982
08/24/19 10:15 AM
08/24/19 10:15 AM
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After 74 years of very problematic visual memory and the worst grades in drawing lessons during my school years, I discovered the name of the problem and the address of its discussion. My thesis or question in this connection is the following: there is 2 statements that, despite aphantasia , its owner can learn to draw , and in addition, the quality of the drawn lines does not determine the quality of the picture. Recently, I first began to ponder this, check on myself; and got some results. As a musician I am constantly looking for common points between the visual and musical, that is, auditory, imagination.
It seems that my aphantasia is not at maximum grade , but the internal images disappear after 0.3 seconds. Then you can ask : how can I find my house? Answer: all visual is perceived in rough schematic contours, and particular details are a huge mass of information that past by the eyes.
I decided to check what was leading in the process of writing with me. As a pianist, it was easy to understand that the leading thing was primarily muscular memory, and then rough schemes of letters and numbers. In order to write, this is quite enough, but for drawing - no. Anyone who can draw a solid, steady, straight line definitely has control over both the whole general shape and every fraction of a millimeter in this line, all this exists in advance in the brain of the painter, and he brings this in series out on the paper.
It is different for me: my line breaks up into conscious points, which are connected by lines created by unconscious uncontrolled movements of inertia; while twhile the eyes move spasmodically. It is clear that under such conditions the necessary self-correction is absent, and the lines inevitably come out curves. The same thing happens when I cut paper with scissors. My handwriting has deteriorated so much that I wanted to send it to the Guinness book for recognition as the worst handwriting in the world; but the competition there is incredible! )
If associated with musical auditory impressions, the drawn line is equivalent to a continuous sung sound; and here I can control every fragment of it. Therefore, I am a musician who does not know how to draw at all .

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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2882986
08/24/19 10:24 AM
08/24/19 10:24 AM
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Maybe Picasso had this condition as well?

Just joking. I can’t help here at all. I don’t draw well but do not have this condition. Maybe it can be learned? As an aside, if you have had a significant deterioration of handwriting over the past while, you might want to seek the evaluation by a doctor, particularly an internist or neurologist, to check this out.


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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2882987
08/24/19 10:31 AM
08/24/19 10:31 AM
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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883012
08/24/19 12:15 PM
08/24/19 12:15 PM
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Connecticut, USA
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Originally Posted by Nahum

It is different for me: my line breaks up into conscious points, which are connected by lines created by unconscious uncontrolled movements of inertia; while twhile the eyes move spasmodically.


It works this way for everyone, but most people never notice it. You are looking closely at the process, and I suspect that it is freaking you out. As an experiment, try drawing a line and let the inertia itself determine where the pencil goes, rather than your preconceived idea of how you want it to look.

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883016
08/24/19 12:25 PM
08/24/19 12:25 PM
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Nahum, I’m sorry to hear that you are having certain issues with visual memory. I may have some good news for you, though. Muscle memory plays quite an active role in drawing. At least in some types of drawing. A line certainly comes under this. While it may seem like a very simple thing to draw, it’s actually quite difficult for people new to drawing to forge a nice, steady line on paper. Curvy lines and feathering (meaning a line composed entirely of tiny little dashes) are a common occurrence even among people who have been doodling random things for years (like me, for example).

A lot of it is to do with trying to use the same motions as we do while writing. That is, using the wrist. It restricts the motion, and is only useful for drawing short lines. Drawing, using the shoulder as a pivot will be much more easier (though, will take practice) to draw a longer, steady line. If you can hold the pencil relatively steadily, I think you may have a good chance to master this with practice. You can check the below link for more information on this.

https://drawabox.com/lesson/1/3/pivots

This particular aspect of drawing is just pure muscle memory. Like you, I also find the similarities with how beginners are advised to learn the piano and drawing, quite interesting! “Ghosting” is another technique that is used in both piano and drawing practice.

Regarding your concerns about the images disappearing after roughly 0.3 seconds, I’m not certain what would help. However, I have heard at least one drawing teacher suggesting looking back and forth constantly between the reference picture and the drawing. Not every once in a while, but constant, quick glances between the picture and the paper. I don’t know, how well this strategy will work for this condition. Also, drawing from imagination or memory is not required in the beginning processes of learning to draw.

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Tech-key] #2883063
08/24/19 03:29 PM
08/24/19 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK


It works this way for everyone, but most people never notice it. You are looking closely at the process, and I suspect that it is freaking you out.
Already does not infuriate; knowing the reason, I calmed down. Someone knows how to draw, another knows how to improvise music ...

Quote
As an experiment, try drawing a line and let the inertia itself determine where the pencil goes, rather than your preconceived idea of how you want it to look.
This is what I did constantly in the past, but seeing the results, refused to handwriting (except for signing bills; and then try to fake my handwriting ...).


[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by Tech-key
Nahum, I’m sorry to hear that you are having certain issues with visual memory.
Yes, these problems were expressed also in different ways - I haven't spatial imagination, I do not play any game that requires visual memory: chess, cards, dominoes and the like.


Quote
However, I have heard at least one drawing teacher suggesting looking back and forth constantly between the reference picture and the drawing. Not every once in a while, but constant, quick glances between the picture and the paper. I don’t know, how well this strategy will work for this condition.
Oh yeah; how familiar this is from school years! Someone tried to draw in a state of constant panic?







Last edited by Nahum; 08/24/19 03:37 PM.
Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883069
08/24/19 03:48 PM
08/24/19 03:48 PM
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Connecticut, USA
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by MichaelJK


It works this way for everyone, but most people never notice it. You are looking closely at the process, and I suspect that it is freaking you out.
Already does not infuriate; knowing the reason, I calmed down. Someone knows how to draw, another knows how to improvise music ...


I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Quote
Quote
As an experiment, try drawing a line and let the inertia itself determine where the pencil goes, rather than your preconceived idea of how you want it to look.

This is what I did constantly in the past, but seeing the results, refused to handwriting (except for signing bills; and then try to fake my handwriting ...).


I was talking about drawing a straight line, not about handwriting. Handwriting is a much harder thing to learn, although you can do that as well (I taught myself how to write with my non-dominant hand).

I could talk all day about how to learn music, handwriting, and drawing, because I've spent a lot of time thinking very deeply about all three of them...

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883073
08/24/19 04:06 PM
08/24/19 04:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
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India
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Originally Posted by Nahum



Quote
However, I have heard at least one drawing teacher suggesting looking back and forth constantly between the reference picture and the drawing. Not every once in a while, but constant, quick glances between the picture and the paper. I don’t know, how well this strategy will work for this condition.
Oh yeah; how familiar this is from school years! Someone tried to draw in a state of constant panic?


Oh, I never thought drawing could result in panic. Though after you mention it, I think it may be possible. My father has been getting panicky in recent years, whenever he has to sign a cheque. He is only 67, but he has tremors in his hands.

I had heard that comment about the reference picture and "looking back and forth", from a YouTube teacher. Our school's art teacher was pretty chilled out. He rarely, if ever, asked us to copy something. He was into modern art. I don't know, if that has anything to do with it. I now think, he was indifferent towards the school lessons. Mostly, he continued to work on his own stuff, and would just give us a topic and ask us to draw whatever. Sometimes though, he'd take us to the clay area in the school, and teach us some sculpting. That used to be a lot of fun!


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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: MichaelJK] #2883166
08/25/19 01:59 AM
08/25/19 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK


It works this way for everyone, but most people never notice it.
Michael, can you provide a link about research on this subject, including statistics?

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883271
08/25/19 11:08 AM
08/25/19 11:08 AM
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Posts: 83
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This is very interesting. I have a condition called prosopagnosia, otherwise known as "face blindness.". It also has to do with visual memory but specifically for faces. I recognize people by all other factors, especially their voice, movement styles, shapes of their features, etc. But I don't see the "whole" when I look at a face---only specific parts. When I try to conjure up an image of a friend of relative, nothing comes. My visual memory for other things is horrible too. You're not alone, Nahum, and music is a wonderful equalizer! Piano is so tactile and auditory! I find that I can just let go of the other issues in life and move forward with piano!


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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883288
08/25/19 11:58 AM
08/25/19 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by MichaelJK


It works this way for everyone, but most people never notice it.
Michael, can you provide a link about research on this subject, including statistics?


I'm not personally aware of any research on this subject, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. How would the research help you?

Most people are walking around with the mistaken notion that the things they experience have some "solidity" to them. I know this because I used to see things that way as well, and after many hours of paying attention to my own mind in meditation, I no longer see things that way. So, the way you're describing your reality seems, to me, to be a more accurate description of normal human experience, which is simply unnoticed by most people.

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: MichaelJK] #2883328
08/25/19 01:48 PM
08/25/19 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK


I'm not personally aware of any research on this subject, but that doesn't mean there isn't any.


That is,
Originally Posted by MichaelJK


It works this way for everyone,

this is your own assumption, not supported by any scientific statistics.

Quote
Most people are walking around with the mistaken notion that the things they experience have some "solidity" to them.
If you do not ask others for comparison, you cannot know. By the way, in the absence of MRI, researchers could also use only a survey. This is exactly what I started to do; and I got some statistics. The next step was to find "colleagues in misfortune." They are here https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=Aphantasia
, and you can ask them.


Quote
How would the research help you?

I do not know yet, these are new facts and ideas for me. I will attach them to my knowledges, and something may come out; as was the adaptation of Dr. Charles Limb's research on brain processes during improvisation.

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2883345
08/25/19 02:27 PM
08/25/19 02:27 PM
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I'm a little confused. Are you doing neuroscience research, or are you personally frustrated about how your own brain is working?

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: MichaelJK] #2883533
08/26/19 05:04 AM
08/26/19 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK
I'm a little confused. Are you doing neuroscience research, or are you personally frustrated about how your own brain is working?

I am no longer frustrated!

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2887101
09/05/19 03:27 AM
09/05/19 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tech-key


Regarding your concerns about the images disappearing after roughly 0.3 seconds, I’m not certain what would help. However, I have heard at least one drawing teacher suggesting looking back and forth constantly between the reference picture and the drawing. Not every once in a while, but constant, quick glances between the picture and the paper. I don’t know, how well this strategy will work for this condition. Also, drawing from imagination or memory is not required in the beginning processes of learning to draw.

By the example of poor handwriting, one cannot judge the quality of drawing; and here is an examples -
Drawing of a person who believes that he has no talent for drawing:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...20000.1567667787.&type=3&theater

My attempt to copy his drawing:

[Linked Image]

It turns out that there are different degrees of inability.

Who claimed that drawing is not related to the ability to draw lines?


Last edited by Nahum; 09/05/19 03:28 AM.
Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2887471
09/06/19 04:33 AM
09/06/19 04:33 AM
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Correct me if I’m wrong. I think the point you are trying to make is that due to some neurological or other physical issues, some people may never get good at drawing. And you are stretching that association to music as well. I have nothing much against this idea, other than that with practice everyone improves at least to some extent. The effort required may not be worth it, though.

I’m also a bit confused about where you are coming from. Are you saying that you have been practicing to draw for a long time, but still not improving? And come on, cheer up! The picture you posted is not bad, if you didn’t draw for a while. I could tell in an instant that it was a high heeled shoe. This is how pretty much everyone starts. In first grade, my science teacher told my mother that my diagram of a fish looked like an ice-cream cone! At least, you got a resemblance! smile

I don’t think you are looking for advices to improve your drawing. And I draw at a very amateurish way myself, so I can only say what I think may work in this case. Try practicing basic shapes. Curves, quadrilaterals, ellipses, etc. Start with just a big C on the page. Practice until it’s steady and swift. Then an S. Stuff like this. As a pianist, I think you’ll appreciate how muscle memory works here. If you can do this, you will totally be able to draw actual objects. All this will of course need practice. If you have already done your practicing and not improved, then it is indeed a unique case. People like me cannot comment anything about that, other than finding the discussion interesting.


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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Tech-key] #2887521
09/06/19 09:00 AM
09/06/19 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Tech-key
Correct me if I’m wrong. I think the point you are trying to make is that due to some neurological or other physical issues, some people may never get good at drawing. And you are stretching that association to music as well. I have nothing much against this idea, other than that with practice everyone improves at least to some extent. The effort required may not be worth it, though.


Quote
I’m also a bit confused about where you are coming from. Are you saying that you have been practicing to draw for a long time, but still not improving?


As a child, I loved to draw and got a lot of paper dirty . At school, in drawing lessons, I received consistent poor grades. but I continued to draw until the age of 12, when realized that this didn't lead anywhere; and lost all desire to draw! For proportion - the drawing of my son, who also did not study drawing specifically ( animation yes ):

[Linked Image]





Last edited by Nahum; 09/06/19 09:09 AM.
Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2887557
09/06/19 11:25 AM
09/06/19 11:25 AM
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Sorry, I had misunderstood. Now I get your point, I think. Tell your son, his art rocks thumb


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Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: Nahum] #2887606
09/06/19 02:07 PM
09/06/19 02:07 PM
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MichaelJK Online content

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Tech-key


Regarding your concerns about the images disappearing after roughly 0.3 seconds, I’m not certain what would help. However, I have heard at least one drawing teacher suggesting looking back and forth constantly between the reference picture and the drawing. Not every once in a while, but constant, quick glances between the picture and the paper. I don’t know, how well this strategy will work for this condition. Also, drawing from imagination or memory is not required in the beginning processes of learning to draw.

By the example of poor handwriting, one cannot judge the quality of drawing; and here is an examples -
Drawing of a person who believes that he has no talent for drawing:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...20000.1567667787.&type=3&theater

My attempt to copy his drawing:

[Linked Image]

It turns out that there are different degrees of inability.

Who claimed that drawing is not related to the ability to draw lines?



Do you want to get better at drawing? If you want to, you can. You just need to practice the right way. I can tell you how to do it, or you can read the book I recommended. I don't see anything in your drawing that suggests to me that you couldn't improve.

Re: Aphantasia & drawing [Re: MichaelJK] #2887632
09/06/19 03:34 PM
09/06/19 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJK


Do you want to get better at drawing? If you want to, you can. You just need to practice the right way. I can tell you how to do it, or you can read the book I recommended. I don't see anything in your drawing that suggests to me that you couldn't improve.
You know, I'm just a realist. My son and I never learned to draw. Miki drew such things at the age of 25; and before that, he copied from memory the images on the cover of boxes with compacts of his favorite groups. What do you think, how much can I advance in my 74 years, and is it worth it to force myself to invest effort?

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