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I own a 1981 Steinway B which I enjoy immensely. I've had it for 2.5 years, and I've had a partial rebuild done about 2 years ago, which I've written about hear on PW in other threads. (Only the action was removed. The piano itself was not moved.) In the 2.5 years I've had it, it's been tuned approximately every 6 months or so by concert technicians. I am keeping the humidity under control.

I purchased it from a local dealer, it was a former C&A instrument, and I know some of it's history. My technician (who did the partial rebuild -- action stack and hammers) feels the pin block is in great shape. It tunes up very well and initially it sounds beyond my expectations, but then over a couple of weeks certain notes and sections quickly drift back out of tune. Then it seems to "settle in" at the same place it was before I had it tuned. It doesn't sound horrible, but it bothers me. So to-date, I have just been living with it until the next tuning. Since I now some of it's history prior to my owning it, I suspect that it may have set for a while and was not tuned regularly, if at all.

So I'm thinking about having it tuned very frequently for a period of time to "overcome" the drifting back and lock it in to a more stable, even tuning. What are some of your experiences? How many tunings or months did it take? How often did you wait between tunings to achieve your desired results.

I'm no pro, but have learned a lot about tuning stability on my own pianos.

First, the environment does indeed have a lot to do with tuning stability, but is not the sole reason for good tuning stability or the lack thereof. One of my grand pianos is located near an exit door, and that piano needs tuning more often than my other pianos. I've accepted it and learned to live with it.

Secondly, yes, the more often a piano is tuned, the more stable the tuning will become. I purchased an older Kawai K48A upright piano from the estate of a professional pianist/piano teacher. It was in good tune the day I looked at it and purchased it from the late pianist's son. There is no doubt it was tuned and serviced often. The tuning on that piano has remained very stable, and is stable now. I tune it about once a year, and it is not out that bad then.

Thirdly, a very good tuner/technician should have a good technique in setting the tuning pin to establish good tuning stability. That may include hitting the test blows very hard when tuning. Also, and by the same token as good pin setting using hard test blows, hard playing, and often, will aid in tuning stability. When I tune my pianos, I play them hard right after the tuning. If any unisons are knocked out slightly, due to the hard playing, I readjust and play it hard some more. However, I'm sure some would disagree with me on my tuning stability strategies.

If I were you, and as nice a piano as the Steinway B is, I'd have it tuned more frequently, and by someone who is very good at it. It sounds like you have the environmental/humidity issue under good control. I'd focus on "training/grooming" your piano to stay in tune longer. They all drift out of tune eventually, but you want it to stay put as long as possible.

Not sure this helps, but I hope it does.

All the best!

Rick

GC13,

A few questions on this topic please:

1) Is your tuning schedule locked in...e.g. 2nd week of Oct/2nd week of April, etc or do you sort of negotiate on that?

2) What specific months do you actually tune it? (It can make a BIG difference).

3) Do the tuning changes tend to congregate around the scale breaks e.g. bass/tenor and the next strut up?

4) How are you controlling the humidity?

5) What action work was done, and what parts installed (if any)?


To be perfectly blunt about something...the early 80's was not a great time for QC at the SS factory. I have an immediate suspicion without your answers to the above, but I will wait till I hear your answers. I have long maintained: There is ALWAYS a reason.

Pwg

It would seem that your own tech, who was well-qualified enough to rebuild the action, would have the answer.

I liked what Rick said; he's very hands-on and has long experience. But Peter has cast a spell of piano mystery over the otherwise mundane affair of getting a piano to stay in tune, after it has been moved and had the action adjusted.

My experience with my NEW piano--- nothing like yours--- was, to have it tuned four or five times the first year, a bit less the second, three for the third, and by the fourth year two tunings from then on. But, this is in California, with its two seasons: rainy and dry, and that is why Peter is asking about the specific months you get the tunings. It's all about the humidity. We wait for the season to change and settle down, then tune. My tech sends me postcards, but I know.

Unless Peter can turn up an unexpected guilty culprit, I would suspect that the remedy you already have in mind would work well for you. If it does not, that would be the time to look more deeply into it. I don't mention the obvious villains of tuning stability: direct sunlight on the case and an HVAC vent that blows on the piano, because I assume you already know better. No one can tune fast enough to keep ahead of these bad actors.

You might want to post this on the Technicians forum as well if you haven't done so yet.

Peter has already asked the very same questions (and a few more) that I would ask you.

I look forward to your answers to him.

FYI, my question about the action has nothing DIRECTLY to do with tuning stability. But as Dr. John Sarno always used to say: "Effective treatment depends on an accurate diagnosis" AKA "treat the problem, not the symptom". In order to do that one must find the real problem...then treatment can ensue.

There are real reasons why a piano 'seems to want to go back where it was before it was tuned'. I heartily agree with Rick's suggestion to tune it more often, but there are also potential "bugs" that can hamper a techs work no matter how good she/he is.

Pwg

Thanks for the feedback. I'll repost answers to all of Peter's questions all at the same time later this evening when I get home to the piano so I can accurately answer them. I have an idea on most of them, but it will be simplify the thread if I do it all at once.

GC13, I have lived with a similar situation. I had my grand piano at my sister s house until I purchased my own home. This was back in October 2016. I always had my piano maintained and tuned regularly. I also had a Dampp Chaser system installed. I had my piano tuned approximately every two months, and there were times when I had it tuned more frequently. My piano was moved into my home in August of 2017. I have central a/c and have it in an optimal position in my den. I should note that I play a minimum of two hours per day, just about every day (usually take one day off if that) if not more. Since my piano was moved in, I have regularly tuned my piano approximately every two - three months. I have an excellent technician who examined my piano and assured me that the pin block and action were in tact, with no problems. A technician from the piano company where I purchased the piano also came out to examine and evaluate my piano with the same findings as my own personal technician - everything was in tact. He did, however, tell me that the piano needs to settle. Since his visit I had my action regulated and the piano tuned. Good news was that the piano was slightly out of tune and not as severely out of tune as in the past. So, maybe it is -settling. only time will tell. I understand the economic aspect of this as well. I am not rich so, tuning my piano approximately every two months is very costly. However, I just can't play it out of tune. I hope that the tuning on my piano does become more stable because I love the tone of my piano. If it doesn't, then I will consider the option of upgrading. I wish you luck and I hope your pianos tuning becomes stable.

If it were me, I’d answer those questions and talk to your piano technician about what might you do or s/he do to increase your piano’s tuning stability. It might cost more but it sure beats paying for it to be tuned every other month. I’m sure not anywhere nears as hands on as Rickster (I’m sure my piano is thankful 😁) but it sure sounds more “temperamental” than it should be at this stage. Hopefully its something that’s easily remedied.

As a precursor...as most everyone here already knows, a concert instrument gets tuned once or twice before any and every concert. On rare occasions it gets touched up at intermission. Why? Is it because the tech does not know his/her stuff? Not in the slightest. It is because the forces that CAUSE all pianos to go out of tune are relentless, and constantly changing.

Of course a concert instrument (or a recording instrument) is expected to be as good as it gets all the time. This is not an expectation in a home situation. Some toleration of drift is expected. However there is "normal" going out, and there is "abnormal" going out.

Many people are fooled by the weight and seeming solidity of pianos. They weigh anywhere from 400 lbs to 2000lbs. They have gobs of well seasoned wood and a huge cast iron frame inside. How could
such a monstrosity be SO SENSITIVE to going out of tune. Do they not know how to build pianos that will stay in tune? (Actually...yes they do...😎 but that is a different story).

Yes they are stiff and heavy...seemingly solid and impervious. Except for one thing...the soundboard. The solid spruce soundboard is a pretty thin membrane (comparatively speaking) and is (generally) forced into a slight curve creating both tension and compression in one unit (violating good woodworking principles), and then loaded with 20-30 or more tons of tension with roughly 1000-1500 lbs of direct pressure on the board itself. This is a "time bomb" and is subjected 24/7/365 to variations in temperature and humidity which affect the dimensions and stability of the structure, often to the extreme.

Now tuning...few people truly understand how sensitive a "tuning" is. The fact of the matter is that the difference between a string being "in tune" vs "out of tune" can amount to a movement of less than .001". Add in the factors above and add PLAYING to it and its actually pretty amazing that we can achieve a stable tuning under any circumstances.

And the cast iron frame is actually another illusion. Yes, it's big and heavy and strong, but under the stress of 20-30 tons of tension it's not as "solid" as many think. It does flex, and the way in which it flexes can affect tuning stability.

Few people realize that modern pianos still employ mostly 19th century (or even earlier) technology. Still, some pianos seem to hold their tuning better than others...why? Some pianos hold their tuning extremely well in one home, then get moved to another home and seem to go nuts...why? Some pianists have a style of playing that "makes" a piano go out of tune, whereas others can play with incredible force...yet the piano does NOT go out appreciably...why? Some pianists even have a style of playing that breaks strings constantly, whereas others can play at high volume and never produce breakage...why?

There are answers to all of these questions. Do I know all the answers?...no, but I do know some of them.

Pwg

Excellent post, Peter. When you speak, I listen, intently.

I think that perhaps what is so frustrating to GC13, and Music Me, is not so much that their pianos seem to have an issue with what they consider good tuning stability (or the lack thereof), but that their pianos are Tier I, very expensive pianos. GC13 has a Steinway B, and Music Me has a semi-concert Bosendorfer. These are not cheap or mediocre brand pianos, but these are top-of-line, Tier I pianos. I can fully understand why they would expect better tuning stability than what they have. And, as Music Me mentioned, having their piano tuned every two months can get expensive, regardless of the brand or piano they have.

So, is the answer here that all pianos are the same when it comes to tuning stability? I would have expected better from those two particular brands, but that is just me. I'm sure all acoustic pianos, regardless of brand, have some things in common.

But I do like your philosophy that there is a reason for the symptoms of tuning instability, regardless of brand. I'm anxiously awaiting the answers myself. I'm always looking to learn something about pianos!

Rick

IMO, stiff wrists are the major reason for unisons going out of tune and string breaks.

Maybe, just maybe, the guy tuning your piano isn't as great as you think he is. Is he a real concert technician, i.e. does he have his name listed on a number of really good recordings when visiting allmusic.com and search for his name? Does he get to tune for great visiting artists and are they specifically asking for him as their technician or even ask him to get along on a tour through various cities?

If not, I suspect that your piano hasn't really reached its full potential through a really good tuning and that you may want to get a second opinion by someone who meets the criteria listed in the previous paragraph. I can honestly say that it made all the difference when my 130 year old Steinway B was finally tuned by someone of that calibre - and my apartment is a hellhole in terms of temperature and humidity fluctuations.

The other day I interviewed a young woman who wanted piano lessons with me. She had started lessons when she was28 with a gr 10 piano student then stopped playing for a few years.She practiced on some type of keyboard (I suspect not a good one)
When she played a gr 3 piece(Handel piece)she attacked the keys with the hardest tone
I have ever heard ,in" jerkey"movements.
Immediately I thought she was going throw the piano out of tune.,I also thought she was going
injure herself.
Fortunately telling her she would have to go back a few grades (I did not want her to feel rejected)and learn about relaxation and how to play legato,she phoned and said she
wanted to take up art instead.
I was actually worried about my piano if I gave her lessons ! I have never heard anyone ever play so
so hard on a piano.The piece was just some little minuet.But yes she would have been able to break
strings perhaps not on a new piano like mine bur for sure on one a few years older.

For the record, I do not own a semi-concert Bosendorfer and never said I did. I own A Cunningham Parlour Grand.

Thank you! That is incredibly informative.

Please accept my most sincere apologies, Music Me. I must have had you confused with another PW member. I have conversed with so many wonderful members here over the years, via the forums and PMs, I must have got you confused with another Barbara.

A Cunningham Parlour Grand is not a shabby piano either.

Again, please pardon my mistaken identity of your piano.

Rick

.

Have you contacted Rich at Cunningham Pianos? I think he would like to know about the tuning instability

It's a matter of what your demands on your piano are - you can have it serviced as often as you wish.

I've a similar sized Grotrian to yours. Had it's 7th birthday a couple of weeks ago - it came direct from Braunschweig and in my home 10 days later, sounding spectacular. I had it serviced at about 8 weeks old, then 4 times in the next 2 years. I now have it done 3 times a year - approx Spring, Summer and Autumn. It's really stable now, and I might revert to just Spring and Autumn after this year.

Yes, before it is serviced, I can sometimes detect that it's ready to be serviced, but as someone indicated above, a concert instrument is serviced before each concert sometimes more than once. I've seen the technician come to a concert instrument during interval. So I don't expect that with 3 or 4 services a year that mine will quite sound like a Concert piano 100% of the time.

Enjoy your Steinway!!