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Originally Posted by Campanella12
Originally Posted by swampwiz


OH MY!



@ swampiz

Why the surprise at Petrof being higher priced?
It's not higher priced unless someone pays MSRP. It's considerably lower priced.

Originally Posted by Campanella12
The PETROF family has – since regaining factory – made these instruments into some of the finest available. They designed and launched an entire new piano line. They expanded their factory. They build a huge selection center in the Royal City (Hradec Kralove) next to their production facilities. PETROF today is one of the only two choices of pianos build in the Viennese tradition of sound and workmanship. The Petrof art family is expanding.

Maybe most importantly, while factory after factory from Germany and other parts of Europe is folding or selling out to the Chinese or Asian interests (Schimmel, Grotrian, Seiler,….), PETROF has grown and become stronger with every year. Its books are free of any long term debts.

This year they celebrated their 155th Anniversary and invited Merchants from all of the world. There were several hundred visitors for the 3 day celebrations. Here are a video and some pictures:

https://youtu.be/_Zd__xjqqAI

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2881233/petrof-155th-anniversary-part-2.html

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2881219/petrof-155th-anniversary.html


PETROF’s formula for such success has some fairly simple ingredients: 1.Increase Quality of Sound and Piano. 2. Never compromise. PETROF stands for 100% workmanship and materials completed at the factory and sourced from Austria, the Czech Republic, and Germany.

And while I appreciate Steinway, they really have not developed anything new for years. The Spirio product was formerly known as LX Performance and was a technology that Bosendorfer presented in the 1980ies to the market (Bosendorfer SE) and that Mr. Stahnke upgraded once patents and non compete agreements expired. They have certainly marketed it better and built a library around it. Family owned PETROF pianos should be of higher value.
This seems to be a lengthy add for Petrof by a Petrof representative that also makes negative comments about other makers.

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@Campanella12

Well, I know they have not changed the price for some time, but the price was at least valid less than 2 years a ago when I tried the Breeze and the Storm, it was the sticker price inside the shop. Since Norway does not use Euro, the price depends quite a bit on the Euro/NOK exchange. In the last 8 years the Euro has become approx 25% more expensive. Good for exports, bad for pianos. The Sauter, which they also sold at a very favourable price, had a recent price increase this year due to this. It seems strange they did not increase the prices for the Petrof in their web shop at the same time. It is quite common here I have noticed to keep the same price for several years, Steinway excluded.

Last edited by Skjalg; 08/20/19 05:12 PM.

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@ Skjalg

Thanks for the information. I can tell you that PETROF had a significant price increase in the last 24 months. We chose to pass it on in 2 incremental increases and not at once. When talking to other store owners and distributors, the consensus seemed that the price increase was in line with what the factory has been doing and had not adversely affected sales.


Originally Posted by Skjalg
@Campanella12

It seems strange they did not increase the prices for the Petrof in their web shop at the same time. It is quite common here I have noticed to keep the same price for several years, Steinway excluded.



My personal experience matches your observation and became more reinforced when I was transferred to the US market. The stark difference between European and American piano outlet channels is that in Europe it is usually piano technicians who service pianos that have also a store and sales operation. Often, at least when I was active in that market, piano sales were an afterthought for these piano technicians. European piano stores often (not always!) seemed almost like a pursuit of a hobby and dealers sold their pianos often with little to no margin. For them it seemed a bit of additional income they did not have to work for. The exception were and are Steinway stores that are run like a business and sales are the main concern. So are margins.

In the North American market, most stores are run like a business and not as an afterthought to a service operation. North American stores often have better representation of the entire line of instruments. And they rely on sales to earn money.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus


This seems to be a lengthy add for Petrof by a Petrof representative that also makes negative comments about other makers.



@ Pianoloverus- I did not mean to offend you with my statement that PETROF's has been a more innovative company than many others out there. However, I stand by it and if you are of different opinion I am willing to discuss it. Ultimately, it is the customer who will sit down at a PETROF Pasat or Breeze or another brand and decide which piano to take home.

Last edited by Campanella12; 08/20/19 05:45 PM.

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Originally Posted by Campanella12
Originally Posted by pianoloverus


This seems to be a lengthy add for Petrof by a Petrof representative that also makes negative comments about other makers.



@ Pianoloverus- I did not mean to offend you with my statement that PETROF's has been a more innovative company than many others out there. However, I stand by it and if you are of different opinion I am willing to discuss it. Ultimately, it is the customer who will sit down at a PETROF Pasat or Breeze or another brand and decide which piano to take home.
My comment had nothing to do with whether or not your statement was true or false.

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Even though Schimmel, Grotrian, and Seiler are owned by Chinese and Asian companies.They have
models which are still made in Germany . I believe these far more highly rated than Petrof.These are really great pianos.Bösendorfer is now owned by Yamaha.They are still made in Austria and are one of the most amazing of pianos.
I am glad for the Petrof family and for the Czech people that Petrof have recovered so well after
the 1990's
Sure Petrof is an important piano, but I do not believe it is as well rated as Bösendorfer, Bechstein,
Seiler,Sauter,August Forster, Bluthner , Schimmel, Steingraeber,Ronisch and the other German pianos.
I am compairing German pianos because you mentioned German pianos.

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Wow, so much to unpack in this thread! I have a busy week going on, but took a peek this morning, and the comment below has been nagging at me. I'll address the pricing gobbledygook later, but need to get this off my chest.

Originally Posted by Campanella12
Maybe most importantly, while factory after factory from Germany and other parts of Europe is folding or selling out to the Chinese or Asian interests …

To identify not "selling out to the Chinese or Asian interests" as potentially the company's most important accomplishment strikes me very, very oddly.

Let me go ahead and save a few laps around the spinmeister track: I get the context, that petrof is ostensibly a financially healthy enterprise. But a company need not be unhealthy to be sold (e.g. Renner was recently acquired by Steinway). Sometimes the owners simply and rightfully want to divest. Additionally, businesses "fold" when they've failed, and are essentially worthless. Conversely, and preferably, selling results in the owners receiving a fair price for their enterprise. Finally, referring to a hypothetical sale as "selling out," implies a "compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity, or principles" [Wikipedia].

What I read above literally equates "selling out to the Chinese or Asian interests" with failure, and implies that it's immoral.

Why would it not be preferable to sell to anyone for a fair price?

What's wrong with selling to "Chinese or Asian interests?"


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The Chinese normally buy what’s interesting to them, what makes economic sense and what they ‘can’ If they don’t, one or all of the questions are in the negative. Enough to move on to others. Only they know. Only they should care. Why would anybody else?
Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 08/21/19 04:57 PM.

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Glad the Petrof rep is weighing in, but PL is right. He's weighing in with a nicely-selected infomercial.

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Originally Posted by Norbert
The Chinese normally buy what’s interesting to them, what makes economic sense and what they ‘can’ If they don’t, one or all of the questions are in the negative. Enough to move on to others. Only they know. Only they should care. Why would anybody else?
Norbert

Hi Norbert - Consumers and stockholders should care about the management, efficiencies, and quality of the products they buy and the stock price, which is generally tied to the financial well-being of the company. For an expensive instrument like the acoustic pianos, I care that the company will not go bankrupt during the warranty period. I also like to know that I can get replacement parts twenty years down the road.
Steinway is a known brand leader in acoustic pianos. If a Chinese company buys all or part of Steinway, I hope that the same care and artisanship in the Steinway building teams can and will remain. Heck, I’m still remembering Gibson Guitars and Guitar Center in my prayers every night.


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I do not think because Schimmel, Seiler or Grotrian sold to Chinese or Asian companies
means they went bankrupt.Because these manufacturers still make pianos in Germany
surely they would still honour the warranties of customers of the original manufacturer !
This would seem to be just ethical business practice .
I do not know about Steinways(we keep getting surprising news)but I think Yamaha will
never have to sell to anyone.
Actually I hope that IF Sauter ever has to sell it will be to a another German manufacturer
or to someone like Kawai .(the way Bösendorfer was sold to Yamaha)
I am awfully ignorant about these things J&J so I am probably speaking nonsense.
By the way Gibsons .,do they make pianos? I do not know thier significance ?

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird


By the way Gibsons .,do they make pianos? I do not know their significance ?



Gibson is one of two very famous guitar makers, the other being Fender. You will find plenty of info if you google Gibson guitars.



Originally Posted by Lady Bird


I do not think because Schimmel, Seiler or Grotrian sold to Chinese or Asian companies
means they went bankrupt





@ ladybird:

As to your thoughts on the European makes, here are the facts:

Seiler entered bankruptcy court in 2008

https://www.mainpost.de/regional/kitzingen/Klavierfabrik-Seiler-ist-insolvent-60-Mitarbeiter-betroffen;art773,4587587

Schimmel entered bankruptcy protection in 2010.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/untern...icket=ST-978464-3ovcNoEfKMwcValdinjB-ap5

Bösendorfer was very healthy and strong company in its structure– and continues so today.


In 2005/6 its owner BAWAG bank, who had bought Bösendorfer just three years earlier, teetered on bankruptcy and criminal corruption charges. The bank had to sell them.


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAWAG-Affäre

Further information is not public and not permissible to share here.


In this context, it was fortunate that other companies stepped up and purchased them both to protect the customers and create continuity. Among all these transaction Yamaha, as a buyer, treated Bösendorfer really the best. They did not change a thing and through its sales network made it stronger. As an industry, I think everyone is glad that Chinese, Korean, and Japanese companies helped out and kept these companies alive.

PETROF on the other hand had a very tough time after the PETROF family was able to get the company back. Actually, they had to buy the company back because the state argued that its production was so much bigger than in 1949 when the government nationalized the factory and imprisoned or exiled away all PETROF family members.

From 2000 to 2006 Zuzana PETROF took some big risks in abandoning the strategy of the former Communist rulers of being a middle of the road piano and pushed to build a new line together with their chief designer and workers who had long retired but agreed to come back They were looking to recreate the sound that the pre- 1949 instruments had. The risk and hard work paid off.

Last edited by Campanella12; 08/23/19 04:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Secondly. There a two main reasons European pianos are less expensive in Europe. First is freight. These pianos do no walk across the Atlantic. Also, European dealers often buy direct from the manufacturer, where in North America they are purchased from a distributor. This ads a margin to North American sales that isn't present in Europe. There are also import duties, tariffs, etc.

These are not reasons why pianos sell for less in Europe. They are reasons why it might be more expensive to bring a piano to market in the US.

It's well-known that cost-plus pricing is too simplistic when sales prices represent presumed value to the buyer. It fails in the face of competition and/or cost overruns (and both phenomena are in play here). Don't take my word for it...just Google it.

Things simply aren't "worth" a multiple of their cost, especially if the cost is driven up arbitrarily high.

As I've queried in the past (in some of the numerous crazy Petrof prices threads), if Petrof's products are truly so valuable, then why don't they sell for the same high prices in Europe? If they are truly worth so much here, then they should also be worth much more there. After all, isn't that the region where Petrof built its reputation? Why is Petrof leaving money on the table? If Europeans understand and appreciate how "great" these pianos are, wouldn't they be willing to pay similarly high prices?

Lest anyone think I'm crazy about purchasing abroad, here's what a well-respected dealer posted in one of those earlier Petrof threads:

Quote
When a dealer can purchase a NEW piano at retail from another dealer overseas, ship it and import it, and STILL come in under the published "wholesale" in the USA it certainly explains the lack of stocking dealerships for those brands.


So, while it's clever to suggest that the pianos don't just walk across the Atlantic (yukyukyuk), it's contemptuous to expect people to believe that it doubles or triples the cost. Import duties are charged on wholesale prices, and shipping is nominal.

If a dealer can't bring a piano to market for a price that it will (1) actually sell for, and (2) earn her a reasonable return, then it won't be brought to market (as pointed out by the astute dealer above).

As an aside, Petrof might be the kind of brand that could benefit from a cooperative of enthusiastic dealers, who purchase together for the mutual benefit of them all, not to mention consumers, and the factory might even sell a few more. Perhaps then they could be brought to market here for the same sort of reasonable prices at which they seem to be available in Europe.


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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Third, the 10%-30% adjustment to the SMP is to allow for the variation in the dealer's cost of doing business, NOT the negotiating skill of the shopper.

If this were the case, then dealers ought to simply pick a discount amount and stick to it. Even announce it. Like no-haggle car pricing. Perhaps some do. But, the fact that most dealers seem to actively discount and haggle undermines the notion that the range is only to allow for their cost of doing business, because that doesn't fluctuate from minute-to-minute, customer-to-customer, and sale-to-sale. And, after all, if they open the door to negotiation, then negotiating skills are relevant, regardless of what Larry's intent for the SMP methodology is.


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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
First, I am intimately involved in PianoBuyer's pricing policies and parameters, in the ratings, and in the thinking behind them. I am authorized to speak for Larry Fine on these matters.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone toot their own horn in an ordinal list of points before! wink


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@ campy

It's ironic to hear you blame something on an out of date website. wink But I think it's disingenuous in the big picture to imply that this topic is owing only to a stale website, because these crazy Petrof price threads have been popping up for years now. Right? The question would seem to be legitimate...still.

For the benefit of new members, here's a list of related posts that I found in a matter of minutes:

I'm getting deja vu, so rather than engage yet again in the petrof-as-poor-man's-Bösie dance, since you're making some of the same claims, let me just copy in something I wrote from one of the previous hoedowns:

Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by Campanella12
... has since then reestablished Petrof as one of the preeminent authentic piano makers from Europe ...

At first blush, I was going to characterize this statement as a matter of opinion, but after giving it some consideration I think I'll just say that it's untrue. There's no question that Petrof builds authentic pianos ( wink ), but "preeminent?" When one considers that the definition of preeminent is "surpassing all others," and synonyms include the following: greatest, leading, foremost, best, finest, etc, and given the fact that PianoBuyer lists no less than eight European pianos ahead of Petrof (C. Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer, Fazioli, Grotrian, Sauter, Steingraeber & Söhne, and Hamburg Steinway), and more as it's equal, is it really truthful to say that Petrof is "one of the preeminent ... piano makers from Europe?" I'd say that's more like hyperbolic marketing speak


Since the quoted link above is now broken, let me offer up the Internet Wayback Machine's archived copy:

And for comparison, here's the current:

Kudos to you for ratcheting the hyperbole down from 11 to 10.5, but it seems that in spite of all of your grand proclamations, the only thing that's changed in the last few years is that instead of eight there are now nine European pianos rated higher than Petrof (plus NY Steinway, as before)! Oh, and apparently a couple more price increases by Petrof.

One more thing--and I mean this with all sincerity--your comments re. the sale of Bösendorfer and others allay my concerns about your earlier post. thumb


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The only thing I ever heard about Petrof was it was the “poor man’s Steinway”, from a Petrof grand owner and “Petrof has had consistency issues” from the Yamaha dealer, who doesn’t carry Petrof. So I don’t know why the pricing overall is so mysterious. It feels like those places that double the retail price so they can give the customer “slashed to the very bone prices”. I’ve always considered that bad sales technique but I guess it still works.


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People would be well advised to sometimes do some shopping in Europe and learn their modus operandi based of high quality, historic, comparison shopping on that continent. Over there few would dare theirs to call “best beer” “best wine” “best car” “best watch” “best perfume” or also “best piano” For one, there’s tons of strong historic competition, secondly virtually everybody is pursuing a very high standard of manufacture, at least today. The result is a strong sense of mutual respect- for the most part. One can see this by the lack of elitist claims in advertising or trying to be “holier than you” Something certainly not being the case on this continent. Here marketing and hyperbole seem to rule, claims that would be ignored, found incorrect or even ridiculed in Europe.
Sometimes it’s good enough just being yourself. A little special and unique perhaps. Arguing otherwise,IMHO, gives evidence of not understanding what this is all about.
Or simply being a fool....
Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 08/27/19 08:21 PM.

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I do not appreciate the "war " that Sauter found itself in .It has been going for 200 years, was appreciated enormously here on PW. Then all we had were discords here about the brand.
However I shall fight "tooth or nail " any false scandal I hear about any of thier pianos!


Last edited by Lady Bird; 08/28/19 02:32 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Originally Posted by Norbert
People would be well advised to sometimes do some shopping in Europe and learn their modus operandi based of high quality, historic, comparison shopping on that continent. Over there few would dare theirs to call “best beer” “best wine” “best car” “best watch” “best perfume” or also “best piano” For one, there’s tons of strong historic competition, secondly virtually everybody is pursuing a very high standard of manufacture, at least today. The result is a strong sense of mutual respect- for the most part. One can see this by the lack of elitist claims in advertising or trying to be “holier than you” Something certainly not being the case on this continent. Here marketing and hyperbole seem to rule, claims that would be ignored, found incorrect or even ridiculed in Europe.
Sometimes it’s good enough just being yourself. A little special and unique perhaps. Arguing otherwise,IMHO, gives evidence of not understanding what this is all about.
Or simply being a fool....
Norbert

Well, the history of the North American continent is very different than that of Europe. Thank the heavens that none of our piano makers factories were bombed out of existence by British saturation bombing or US tactical bombing during World War II. Allied troops didn’t burn the aged spruce saved especially for soundboards to keep warm in the winter of 1944 - 45. Josef Stalin wasn’t running the business plans of Eastern European piano makers who were forced to manufacture other things than pianos, and the wife of a premier German piano maker wasn’t “secretly in love” with Adolf Hitler and contributed large amounts of her wealth to the Nazi Party.
And for LadyBird’s sake, none of the German manufacturers I spoke about was Sauter as far as I know.
Personally, I’d rather take hyperbole and brashness here.


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