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Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2882330 08/22/19 09:11 AM
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This is profound:

MELODY - SPIRIT
HARMONY - SOUL
RHYTHM - BODY


Selah!


profound - heartfelt, intense, keen, great, very great, extreme, sincere, earnest, deep, deepest, deeply felt, wholehearted, acute, overpowering, overwhelming, deep-seated, deep-rooted, fervent,

Selah - Selah (/ˈsiːlə(h)/; Hebrew: סֶלָה, also transliterated as selāh) is a word used 74 times in the Hebrew Bible—seventy-one times in the Psalms and three times in the Book of Habakkuk.[1] The meaning of the word is not known, though various interpretations are given below. (It should not be confused with the Hebrew word sela` (Hebrew: סֶלַע) which means "rock", or in an adjectival form, "like a rock", i.e.: firm, hard, heavy) It is probably either a liturgico-musical mark or an instruction on the reading of the text, something like "stop and listen." Another proposal is that Selah can be used to indicate that there is to be a musical interlude at that point in the Psalm.[2] The Amplified Bible translates selah as "pause, and think of that." It can also be interpreted as a form of underlining in preparation for the next paragraph.

At least some of the Psalms were sung accompanied by musical instruments and there are references to this in many chapters. Thirty-one of the thirty-nine psalms with the caption "To the choir-master" include the word selah. Selah may indicate a break in the song whose purpose is similar to that of Amen (Hebrew: "so be it") in that it stresses the truth and importance of the preceding passage; this interpretation is consistent with the meaning of the Semitic root ṣ-l-ḥ also reflected in Arabic cognate salih (variously "valid" [in the logical sense of "truth-preserving"], "honest," and "righteous"). Alternatively, selah may mean "forever," as it does in some places in the liturgy (notably the second to last blessing of the Amidah). Another interpretation claims that selah comes from the primary Hebrew root word salah (סָלָה) which means "to hang," and by implication to measure (weigh).[3]


The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2883799 08/26/19 07:51 PM
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Melody is one parameter of music.Harmony, rhythm ,polyphony(counterpoint) form,timbre,texture are others.Sometimes even in Bach ,melody is not the main focus.Yes look at the C minor Prelude
from Book 1 from WTC. Can YOU think is the main focus in this prelude.?Be logical !
Bach's music is not defective !
I do not understand the last post but I find it scary !

Last edited by Lady Bird; 08/26/19 07:53 PM. Reason: Spelling
Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2883827 08/26/19 09:28 PM
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It’s even worse than the narrator of the video in the OP suggests. The algorithms in Spotify and Pandora that decide what songs to add to a playlist, which in turn drives revenue for the songwriter, look at the percentage of listeners who listen to the end vs stopping the play of a song before the end. This is motivating songwriters to produce shorter songs with no intro or verse, but that just go straight into the chorus hook and repeat it with some variations and then end the song. They are composing for the algorithm instead of for the listener or for artistic merit.

Someone who wants to compose for artistic merit is swimming upstream against a string current if they want to make a living. Perhaps that always was true, just in different ways in the past.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2883852 08/26/19 10:59 PM
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Why do we not all just listen to traditional classical Indian music, from India(not influenced by Western music)The focus is purely on melody,long lines which even make use of 1/4 tones ? Most of us will not appreciate this music.
But wow there you are pure melody !
The use of Oh Come Oh Come Immanuel is not a good exampe---in its original form.This was an ancient chant making use of pure melody .No functional hamony was around and people never made harmonic connections when it was a chant.
Later this when harmony and key signatures became clearer ,we thought of this piece as being in E minor.(centuries later)We changed the piece and then added 4 part harmony.It had to fit the added harming structure.It also of course now had harmonic rhythm.
Music was modal ,not just major and minor keys ! To suggest otherwise is incorrect !
Talking " spiritual " was the Rite of Spring visionary? Apart from the unearthly melodies in the opening(The Adoration of the Earth)The whole piece is based on rhythm ! The next movement opens faster but with very evenly distributed chords which suddenly become violenty uneven rhythms and it is as if one is violently beaten about the head.The choreography is strange,the dancers wrists twisting outwards.
The combinations of this music and the dancing evoked a riot which broke out after this first performance in Paris.These were no doubt troubled times.
The Rite of Spring captures the dark (primitive)side of humanity.World War 1 started in 1914 .So was
this masterpiece by Stravinsky (where melody and beauty of melody of little importance) )prophetic?
Was this a mirror of what was about to happen.Why did it affect the audience to this degree ?
I remember at university this was a piece we had to analyze.,and rhythm is what this piece focuses
on.

Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2883855 08/26/19 11:22 PM
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The first performance of the." Rite" was 1913 in Paris.Was it a death of melody ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 08/26/19 11:24 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2883857 08/26/19 11:47 PM
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A good question would be how the range of melodies change over time and place. What exactly are the requirements of melody. How many intervals or notes must there be? If I can sing something, is it not a melody? Are diatonic melodies somehow better than other types? The more one looks into these questions the less substancial or relevant the video seems.

Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2883878 08/27/19 01:40 AM
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I must apologize I did not listen to the whole video.If it is just about pop music ,I am not really
interested.I also find rap really neurotic.
But do think art is tied to life. In modern classical music the focus of the parameters of the music
is often tied to the meaning of the piece.I do not think sweet melodies (in overkill in the strings section of an orchestra )and forms related.to 19th century music is the way to go for modern composers.
Wagner in Tristan and Insolde focuses on harmony ,building up tension more and more, going
through many implied Key changes and finally reaches a point where the music is almost atonal.(a sense of "key" is lost )This relates to the story of Tristan searching for a lost love !
According to Martin Cooper ,Music and Musicians .
The music was regarded as unplayable and unsingable ., King Ludwig ll (the mad one ?)made 3 performance possible.
In Vienna it was abandoned after 77 rehearsals .Von Caroldsfeld ,the first Tristan ,whose wife Malwins Garrigues was the first Isolde,died from rheumatic fever shortly after the production
and his death was attributed to the strain of singing the part ?
After this atonality was reached the direction to go perplexed composers.So eventually enter Schoenberg and Webern.Europe was heavily bombed in WW2 .Schoenberg escaped to the US .,Weber was killed getting on a train by a stray bullet.
Is is coincidental that musical line (melody)is now split into 12 tones .Actually music is split
by these composers into a series of 12 totally unrelated equal tones.
So there was a "death "of melody then by these important (great)composers.
This was no gimmick however nor was it a jingle .You no doubt can sing such a melody but I would
not like to try.This was all serious art though.

Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2884065 08/27/19 12:46 PM
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Please I am not saying we must all listen to atonal music.I am not
saying composition should be atonal.I do not think we could
ever let go of tonality.Composers often now make use of implied tonal
centre's.Schoenberg has been gone for a long while.
As for "hocket" spoken of in the the video.It is just a rhythmic
motif of some sort.
In the 5th Symphony a 4 note motif is used as a structural element
for the whole 1st movement or not ?

Re: The Death of Melody
Lady Bird #2884593 08/28/19 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Melody is one parameter of music.Harmony, rhythm ,polyphony(counterpoint) form,timbre,texture are others.Sometimes even in Bach ,melody is not the main focus.Yes look at the C minor Prelude
from Book 1 from WTC. Can YOU think is the main focus in this prelude.?Be logical !
Bach's music is not defective !
...

No it isn't, and I do think there is melodic material in that prelude. While playing it, imagine a flute or violin-family instrument playing the top treble notes, maybe even holding them for two beats in a pattern like C - C - A flat - A flat - B - B - C - C and so on. Simple, yes, but still a melodic theme, and serves as the basis for the broken chords.

Re: The Death of Melody
rmns2bseen #2884692 08/29/19 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Melody is one parameter of music.Harmony, rhythm ,polyphony(counterpoint) form,timbre,texture are others.Sometimes even in Bach ,melody is not the main focus.Yes look at the C minor Prelude
from Book 1 from WTC. Can YOU think is the main focus in this prelude.?Be logical !
Bach's music is not defective !
...

No it isn't, and I do think there is melodic material in that prelude. While playing it, imagine a flute or violin-family instrument playing the top treble notes, maybe even holding them for two beats in a pattern like C - C - A flat - A flat - B - B - C - C and so on. Simple, yes, but still a melodic theme, and serves as the basis for the broken chords.

Yes there is melodic material.But the main focus of the piece is not melodic .A flute playing those
disjointed notes would not work even if played very fast .Perhaps a violins playing pizzicato,
or a xylophone ?The focus is rhythmic,the repeated progresive chords move fast forward creating
a rising reason which culminates in a beautiful short Cadenza ,with touches of melody.
Melody is only a parameter in music.Listen to some of the long ,long melody lines in the St Matthew
Passion.(an Aria)The human voice is used almost like a musical instrument.Thsee are Bach melodies at there best ! The Prelude in A flat is very much more melodic.
The little Prelude in C minor from the short Preludes is not really melodic either.


Last edited by Lady Bird; 08/29/19 06:00 AM. Reason: Missing word
Re: The Death of Melody
Lady Bird #2884703 08/29/19 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Melody is one parameter of music.Harmony, rhythm ,polyphony(counterpoint) form,timbre,texture are others.Sometimes even in Bach ,melody is not the main focus.Yes look at the C minor Prelude
from Book 1 from WTC. Can YOU think is the main focus in this prelude.?Be logical !
Bach's music is not defective !
...

No it isn't, and I do think there is melodic material in that prelude. While playing it, imagine a flute or violin-family instrument playing the top treble notes, maybe even holding them for two beats in a pattern like C - C - A flat - A flat - B - B - C - C and so on. Simple, yes, but still a melodic theme, and serves as the basis for the broken chords.

Yes there is melodic material.But the main focus of the piece is not melodic .A flute playing those
disjointed notes would not work even if played very fast .Perhaps a violins playing pizzicato,
or a xylophone ?The focus is rhythmic,the repeated progresive chords move fast forward creating
a rising reason which culminates in a beautiful short Cadenza ,with touches of melody.
Melody is only a parameter in music.Listen to some of the long ,long melody lines in the St Matthew
Passion.(an Aria)The human voice is used almost like a musical instrument.Thsee are Bach melodies at there best ! The Prelude in A flat is very much more melodic.
The little Prelude in C minor from the short Preludes is not really melodic either.


No, you wouldn't need a xylophone or pizzicato strings. A whole note held throughout each measure would even do it: C - A flat - B - C - E flat - D and so on. There's the melodic idea. Just because the harmony features those broken chords doesn't make it any less melodic than the opening measures of the St John Passion. Bach's melodies, especially fugue subjects, are often quite short and simple...not always flowing and long. But they're still melodies.

Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2884709 08/29/19 07:36 AM
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^ I would add, by the way, that the Preludes to the first and fourth cello suites are similar cases. Would you say that they're lacking in melody?

Re: The Death of Melody
rmns2bseen #2886084 09/02/19 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
^ I would add, by the way, that the Preludes to the first and fourth cello suites are similar cases. Would you say that they're lacking in melody?

Well If you really think so ! Just go ahead and play it musically.Do you not think that is what really matters ! How you think of it is what is important, since you are the one playing it.
You are the artist.Do you really think I would want to confuse you ?

Re: The Death of Melody
Lady Bird #2886095 09/02/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
^ I would add, by the way, that the Preludes to the first and fourth cello suites are similar cases. Would you say that they're lacking in melody?

Well If you really think so ! Just go ahead and play it musically.Do you not think that is what really matters ! How you think of it is what is important, since you are the one playing it.
You are the artist.Do you really think I would want to confuse you ?

Agreed, playing is better than arguing. A rose by any other name...etc. Best wishes.

Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2886114 09/02/19 02:56 AM
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Sorry I was not trying to argue with you ! It is a wonderful piece.Enjoy it !

Re: The Death of Melody
Tyrone Slothrop #2886184 09/02/19 09:07 AM
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A very interesting and thought-provoking video.

Musical style is not static. It changes and evolves constantly. It's true, as the video points out, that there is a fashion/style/trend in music in which melody is not the primary musical driving element.

But to announce the death of melody perhaps premature. Somewhat of an exaggeration.

Surely it's possible for these different styles of music to exist concurrently. When in the mid-1970s, Steve Reich composed "Music for 18 Musicians", it did not mark the end of melody, for at about the same time Gorecki was composing his Symphony #3. Although stylistically miles apart, one does not negate the other.

One of the things I make an effort to do, especially when out working in the garden, is to listen to what I call "young people's music". And I'm glad I do because I have come across some great songs. The creativity of the young gives me hope and a sense of optimism.

Here is a curated list of some of the songs I like. I would describe them all as melody driven. Melody is what they are about, constrained as they are by populars song form - verse, chorus, middle 8 etc. Popular songs by popular artists in Australia, now. All artists are performing here and now to young audiences.

In the video, examples were given of songs where melody was secondary. My list is full of good, catchy, enjoyable and even beautiful and moving melodies. I like 'em.

Melody of not dead. Just resting in various corners.

Vera Blue "All the pretty Girls"

Thelma Plum "Clumsy Love"

SAFIA "Starlight"

Rufus Du Sol "Lost in my Mind"

Hayden James "Numb"

Vance Joy "We're Going Home"

Amy Shark "I said hi"

Hayden James "Better together"

Vance Joy "Saturday Sun"

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