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Digital dilemma #2882072
08/21/19 01:26 PM
08/21/19 01:26 PM
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mishee Offline OP
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I have posted before and I just read a long discussion from someone facing a similar dilemma. I was considering the Roland hp601. The 603 is significantly more expensive-about$800. There are no Yamaha or Kawai dealers within reasonable driving distance. The store that sells Roland told me they switched from Yamaha and the closest store, though not close enough, that sells yamaha, switched from Roland to Yamaha.
I don’t want to spend 1799 plus tax to find, that in a year, I want something else. The way I feel about any piano now is fo change, assuming I progress. So, now I’m wondering, if I don’t want to spend close to $3000 for a higher end model of any brand, So, should I get something relatively inexpensive to start, even less expensive than the hp601?
If I were to buy the 601 and decided to move up, at some point, it isn’t going to hold its value well. Digital pianos just don’t seem to hold value, based on what I’ve seen.

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Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882075
08/21/19 01:33 PM
08/21/19 01:33 PM
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Posts: 194
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R111 Offline
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If you see that digital pianos aren't keeping their value, you may have answered your own question. Look around at the used market to find a low-cost option that fits your budget.

If you don't find anything at a bargain price, then maybe the pianos are holding their value better than you expected.

Last edited by R111; 08/21/19 01:43 PM.
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: R111] #2882093
08/21/19 02:45 PM
08/21/19 02:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,161
New York City
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LarryK Offline
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Originally Posted by R111
If you see that digital pianos aren't keeping their value, you may have answered your own question. Look around at the used market to find a low-cost option that fits your budget.

If you don't find anything at a bargain price, then maybe the pianos are holding their value better than you expected.


I wonder if digital pianos lose value faster than acoustic pianos. It seems like every time we tie something to computer technology, we face steep depreciation curves. Look at digital cameras, it's the same thing with those, they lose value quickly. Of course, digital pianos and acoustic pianos are both depreciating assets, I just wonder if one depreciates faster than the other. Anybody have a clue? It's a hard thing to figure out, I think.


Yamaha U1 Silent Piano
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882096
08/21/19 02:50 PM
08/21/19 02:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,106
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by mishee
I have posted before and I just read a long discussion from someone facing a similar dilemma. I was considering the Roland hp601. The 603 is significantly more expensive-about$800. There are no Yamaha or Kawai dealers within reasonable driving distance. The store that sells Roland told me they switched from Yamaha and the closest store, though not close enough, that sells yamaha, switched from Roland to Yamaha.
I don’t want to spend 1799 plus tax to find, that in a year, I want something else. The way I feel about any piano now is fo change, assuming I progress. So, now I’m wondering, if I don’t want to spend close to $3000 for a higher end model of any brand, So, should I get something relatively inexpensive to start, even less expensive than the hp601?
If I were to buy the 601 and decided to move up, at some point, it isn’t going to hold its value well. Digital pianos just don’t seem to hold value, based on what I’ve seen.

Why not buy a used FP30 or a new FP10? I sold my used FP30 with 3-pedals, stand and a bench on eBay for $501. Someone got a perfectly acceptable piano for learning to play on.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2882101
08/21/19 03:12 PM
08/21/19 03:12 PM
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OscarRamsey Offline
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^^^

What he said (although I'm not familiar with the FP10).

The FP-30 sounds really good for the price. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it's effectively an FP-50 with a better key action (without line-outs) AND you get bluetooth connectivity. Bear in mind that for a while, the FP-50 was its bigger brother and was being sold for nearly double the price.

I sold mine very easily, due to it's sound/size and price appeal. I don't think you'll have a problem doing that should you wish to get something different in future.

Last edited by OscarRamsey; 08/21/19 03:14 PM.

Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2882106
08/21/19 03:22 PM
08/21/19 03:22 PM
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MrKaramba Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by mishee
I have posted before and I just read a long discussion from someone facing a similar dilemma. I was considering the Roland hp601. The 603 is significantly more expensive-about$800. There are no Yamaha or Kawai dealers within reasonable driving distance. The store that sells Roland told me they switched from Yamaha and the closest store, though not close enough, that sells yamaha, switched from Roland to Yamaha.
I don’t want to spend 1799 plus tax to find, that in a year, I want something else. The way I feel about any piano now is fo change, assuming I progress. So, now I’m wondering, if I don’t want to spend close to $3000 for a higher end model of any brand, So, should I get something relatively inexpensive to start, even less expensive than the hp601?
If I were to buy the 601 and decided to move up, at some point, it isn’t going to hold its value well. Digital pianos just don’t seem to hold value, based on what I’ve seen.

Why not buy a used FP30 or a new FP10? I sold my used FP30 with 3-pedals, stand and a bench on eBay for $501. Someone got a perfectly acceptable piano for learning to play on.


I second that opinion.
Buy used Casio PX150/160, Roland FP30,. Kawai ES100 or Yamaha P105/115. You should get one for anythin between 300-500 USD, but people from US should give you more appropriate pricing. These pianos are sold in most quantitiesz, are relatively easy to resell and to buy cheap as well..

My personal rank in that price bracket is as follows: Yamaha,. Casio, Kawai and Roland. Just look through Craigslist or eBay for the models I listed. Especially Yamaha and Casio should be quite popular. In that way you will have good starter piano, and after a year or two if you will want to upgrade, you money loss will be minimal and you be able to buy the piano you want and not the one that you are uncertain of for big money.

Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882108
08/21/19 03:31 PM
08/21/19 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,073
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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An economist will talk about the "cost of information".

. . . Be prepared to pay it.

I think that you need 88 weighted keys, and a sustain pedal, and a teacher (if you can find, and afford one), to get from "absolute beginner" to something better than that. It won't happen overnight.

I'd limit the search to DP's produced within the past 5 years. Sound generators have improved, and there was a "bump" about 7 years ago.

I'd probably stick to a "slab piano" -- Casio PX-150 (or later), Yamaha P105/P115/P125, Roland FP30/ FP10 (I don't know the Kawai models, they'd be fine too). But if you want a piece of furniture, don't be shy to go that route -- "best sound per dollar" isn't the only criterion.

As your musicianship improves, you may find that you want something better. You'll be able to sell what you bought, at a slight loss (because it was inexpensive to begin with):

. . . that loss will probably be much smaller than the cost of lessons, if you take lessons.

Your first piano (especially if it's digital, not acoustic) will probably not be a "lifetime investment". Don't over-think the decision:

. . . You're buying a tool for learning.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Charles Cohen] #2882177
08/21/19 07:48 PM
08/21/19 07:48 PM
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Posts: 12
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mishee Offline OP
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I guess my question is, is the hp601 worth it and how long could it last? What level of player is it intended for?

Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882185
08/21/19 08:27 PM
08/21/19 08:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello mishee,

Originally Posted by mishee
There are no Yamaha or Kawai dealers within reasonable driving distance.


May I ask where you are based?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Kawai James] #2882189
08/21/19 08:47 PM
08/21/19 08:47 PM
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Posts: 12
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mishee Offline OP
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mishee  Offline OP
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I'm in NJ/USA

Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Charles Cohen] #2882191
08/21/19 08:57 PM
08/21/19 08:57 PM
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mishee Offline OP
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I do want something that will accommodate at least one pedal and having internal memory would be nice, just for the ability to record one hand then play it back and practice the other hand.

Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882209
08/21/19 10:13 PM
08/21/19 10:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,606
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by mishee
I'm in NJ/USA


Thank you.

I briefly checked the Kawai America dealer locator here, which highlight Warner Piano in West Berlin, NJ.

http://www.warnerpiano.com/

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882273
08/22/19 04:19 AM
08/22/19 04:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,462
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by mishee
I have posted before and I just read a long discussion from someone facing a similar dilemma. I was considering the Roland hp601. The 603 is significantly more expensive-about$800. There are no Yamaha or Kawai dealers within reasonable driving distance. The store that sells Roland told me they switched from Yamaha and the closest store, though not close enough, that sells yamaha, switched from Roland to Yamaha.
I don’t want to spend 1799 plus tax to find, that in a year, I want something else. The way I feel about any piano now is fo change, assuming I progress. So, now I’m wondering, if I don’t want to spend close to $3000 for a higher end model of any brand, So, should I get something relatively inexpensive to start, even less expensive than the hp601?
If I were to buy the 601 and decided to move up, at some point, it isn’t going to hold its value well. Digital pianos just don’t seem to hold value, based on what I’ve seen.


I advise you try the used market. The issue with new digitals is that they depreciate faster than cars.
If you go for a used model that's 2 years old, you'll save a lot of money and still get a the best quality.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882274
08/22/19 04:37 AM
08/22/19 04:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,825
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Northern England.
The HP601 is now at a really good price; it's pretty much history but with a top tanking keyboard. Sounds are the same as you'd get from the FP30/50/80 generation, but the cabinet would sound far nicer. I tried one, and it was pleasant.
You could grow to like it or loathe it depending on whether you stick around on this site any longer . . smile Too much information!
I very much liked my FP50 until I well complicated things with Pianoteq . . . .we all sometimes (nearly always) forget that pianos are for playing MUSIC on!

If I was buying a cabinet model, the HP601 (at a good price, say £1k) would be the one for me. It's neat, not overbearing, and reliable.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882393
08/22/19 01:13 PM
08/22/19 01:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,073
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by mishee
I guess my question is, is the hp601 worth it and how long could it last? What level of player is it intended for?


I'll go over the HP603 specs in three critical areas:

. . . action;

. . . sound generator;

. . . amps/ speakers.

Action: PHA-50 (Roland's best, same as the GP609)

Sound generator: "Supernatural Modelling" (Roland's best -- but some people don't like it)

Amplification:

. . . amps: 60 watts, total

. . . speakers: 2 x 12 cm (if there's a weak point, that's it)

. . . Loudness: 106 dB


Now, for the HP601 specs:

Action: PHA-50

Sound Generator: "Supernatural" (not "Modelling") -- an older design, sample-based.

Amplification:

. . . amps: 28 watts, total

. . speakers: 2 x 12 cm

. . Loudness: 104 dB


So the HP603 has the same action as the HP601 (and Roland's other high-end pianos), a "fully modelled" sound generator, and twice the power.

The difference between 106 dB and 104 dB is noticeable, but not substantial.

How much is that difference worth, _to you_ ? I really can't say.


How long with the HP601 last? The general feel, here:

. . . It will last until you decide to upgrade it.

It'll be good well into the "Intermediate" range of study.

If you can afford it, it's a reasonable bet.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2882582
08/22/19 10:58 PM
08/22/19 10:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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To complicate the situation:

The Roland FP-90 ("slab piano" or "stage piano" format) has

. . a PHA-50 keyboard,
. . Supernatural Modelling sound generator,
. . amp: 60 watts total;
. . speakers: two 8x12 cm + two 2.5 cm.

The base unit is $1,900.

You'd need a stand (wooden or steel), and triple-pedal, and (if you want better speakers) a pair of powered monitor speakers. I suspect that combination would cost well under $3,000, and would match specs with the HP603.

It would look funny in a formal living room, right at home in a music studio.

Would it be a "better instrument for a beginner" than a Casio PX-160? Probably. Would it be 5 times better? Probably not.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Charles Cohen] #2883642
08/26/19 12:29 PM
08/26/19 12:29 PM
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Posts: 12
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mishee Offline OP
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I was looking at the Roland F140R. My rationale is that for about $500 more the HP601 doesn't. have a better sound engine and does not. have the 10 year warranty that the HP603 or other more expensive models have.It's also basically the same as the RP51, except for the cabinet. As for the sound, at my level of play, I don't know that having slightly better sound from the 601, will be a big deal.

I guess my question now is, how much longer would the HP601 last than the 140R? How far can you go with a model like that? There aren't a huge number of differences, or, at least, there don't seem to be to. me but am I incorrect?

Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2883672
08/26/19 02:02 PM
08/26/19 02:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 401
Danmark
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Morten Olsson Online content
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Danmark
You could play the 140 for years I’d think - but in my mind the better action in the 601 is probably worth it - it’s one of the best actions you can get.
However you may well want to upgrade down the road regardless of what you decide on. Personally I have gone through quite a few options during the approximately 1,5 years I’ve been playing:

- bought a Roland F140
- sold the F140 and rented an acoustic Kawai K300
- tried replacing the K300 with a rented Kawai VPC1 which was great to play but ended up being too distracting for me with the VST / computer side of things
- exchanged the VPC1 for an ES8 which I’ve enjoyed - great sound, great Keynes, minimum of fiddling
- bought a Yamaha CLP645 at a very good price - didn’t like it and sold it to fund:
- an old Yamaha U1 acoustic which is probably what I’ll be playing for years now - it ticks all my boxes

Who knows how your journey will be - I ended up finding out that I enjoy acoustics way, way more than digitals - not something I would have expected starting out.

So maybe don’t be too hesitant to go ahead and get something and start playing and see where it takes you - whatever newer Roland, Kawai, Casio or Yamaha you get should be fine.

Re: Digital dilemma [Re: Charles Cohen] #2883697
08/26/19 03:33 PM
08/26/19 03:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 45
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OscarRamsey Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
To complicate the situation:

The Roland FP-90 ("slab piano" or "stage piano" format) has

. . a PHA-50 keyboard,
. . Supernatural Modelling sound generator,
. . amp: 60 watts total;
. . speakers: two 8x12 cm + two 2.5 cm.

The base unit is $1,900.

You'd need a stand (wooden or steel), and triple-pedal, and (if you want better speakers) a pair of powered monitor speakers. I suspect that combination would cost well under $3,000, and would match specs with the HP603.

It would look funny in a formal living room, right at home in a music studio.

Would it be a "better instrument for a beginner" than a Casio PX-160? Probably. Would it be 5 times better? Probably not.


Hiya - having had an FP-90 (I only bought it for the keybed at the time; a Home Piano would not fit due in the room due to sloping ceilings). I've now replaced it with an LX-705. I'd definitely opt for a home piano if I had the choice again:

The speakers on the FP-90 didn't give the same immersion, feeling or enjoyment as my LX. Bear in mind that it's an entry-level LX which has exactly the same speaker setup as the HP-704. I've not looked at the 603 series - but there's only £200 difference between the 704 and the 603. It is worth considering as it seems that they may have worked on the sound to bring the new 704 up to date.

Yes, one can purchase a better sound system to use in conjunction with a slab, however aesthetically it's not quite there as you mentioned... neither do you get to feel the sound coming though the instrument (I particularly like how I can feel it through the pedal on my piano - just a small detail but nice to have).

My last point is RE music stand placement. I particularly found this to be an advantage on my LX as it sits higher up, more akin to an acoustic piano therefore it will feel less alien come exam day (I can be unsettled under pressure haha).

I'm not knocking the FP-90 however if one has the budget and the space, I feel that a home piano option would offer advantages (including not having to remove and replace a dust cover).

As far as resale goes - this could be peculiar to my location however I found the FP-30 very easy to sell... but not the FP-90. My girlfriend has bought it off me to replace her FP-50 - like me, she didn't like using the keys on it. I doubt a home piano would be easy to shift either, however my LX is a keeper.


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Digital dilemma [Re: mishee] #2883722
08/26/19 04:27 PM
08/26/19 04:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
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Greater Chicago Metro Area
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EPW Offline
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mishee if you're a beginner don't overthink the decision. Better to get something and get started.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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