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Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... #2881732
08/20/19 04:48 PM
08/20/19 04:48 PM
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newbert Offline OP
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After getting great feedback about arranger keyboards in another thread, I've decided to look for a Roland BK-7M module instead, and use it with my Dexibell P3.

The BK-7M has "traditional" DIN5 MIDI ports while the P3 only has ports marked:

a) USB "Memory" (shaped like USB on a computer), and
b) USB "Computer" (shaped like a USB port on a printer).

Assuming I can connect the BK-7M to the keyboard --

1. Which port on the P3 (a or b above) do I use?, and
2. Would a cable like this one work?

Thanks!


Bert
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Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2881746
08/20/19 05:16 PM
08/20/19 05:16 PM
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You would still need a computer though. You would connect the P3 to the computer as you would a printer, and then the Roland would also connect to the computer using a midi to USB cable like the one you linked to in your post above.

Otherwise you could experiment cutting out the computer by getting one of these as was pointed out before:

https://kentonuk.com/product/midi-usb-host-mkii/


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2881777
08/20/19 06:17 PM
08/20/19 06:17 PM
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EVC2017 Online content
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Originally Posted by newbert
After getting great feedback about arranger keyboards in another thread, I've decided to look for a Roland BK-7M module instead, and use it with my Dexibell P3.

The BK-7M has "traditional" DIN5 MIDI ports while the P3 only has ports marked:

a) USB "Memory" (shaped like USB on a computer), and
b) USB "Computer" (shaped like a USB port on a printer).

Assuming I can connect the BK-7M to the keyboard --

1. Which port on the P3 (a or b above) do I use?, and
2. Would a cable like this one work?

Thanks!


Definitely not b).

I would say a) neither but I recall seeing a post above mentioning Dexibell is adding host support to this USB Memory port. Your best bet is asking directly to Dexibell tech support.

About the adapter work, it depends on the answer to b). However, I have seen several people complaining about these cheap USB-MIDI converters not working very well (or at all).

Last edited by EVC2017; 08/20/19 06:19 PM.

Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2881935
08/21/19 06:48 AM
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It appears the rumour EVC2017 read about is true. This means you can use an ordinary USB cable (an A to B, usually known as a printer cable) to connect the P3 to other devices such as keyboards and modules. This is new technology which expands the normal functioning of USB significantly.

Just plug the rectangular end of printer cable into the P3 and the square end into the other device - Roland module in this case.

But the bulletin says you need the new operating system called AquaViva - which is version OS 4.00 (and presumably anything higher). They say:

"With the new OS AQUAVIVA your DEXIBELL keyboard becomes a master
(host). You can connect other keyboards or modules from any brand
directly to the DEXIBELL USB “Memory” port and exchange MIDI data
without a computer and without using two MIDI cables.
The connection consists of the following main components:
t A Host DEXIBELL keyboard equiped with the OS 4.00 AQUAVIVA.
t One slave MIDI USB Devices as a keyboards.
t A physical bus represented by the USB cable that links the devices
with the host.
USB cable AgB-type"


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2881940
08/21/19 06:57 AM
08/21/19 06:57 AM
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Before you actually buy the new module, you can test whether this new Dexibel-as-host system works by connecting your existing second keyboard up in the way described above using a simple USB printer cable. It will be interesting to hear if it works - they do claim it will work for any type or brand fitted with USB 'b' , which includes your PSR-s775.

Good luck!

Last edited by toddy; 08/21/19 06:58 AM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: toddy] #2881986
08/21/19 09:01 AM
08/21/19 09:01 AM
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newbert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by toddy
Before you actually buy the new module, you can test whether this new Dexibel-as-host system works by connecting your existing second keyboard up in the way described above using a simple USB printer cable. It will be interesting to hear if it works - they do claim it will work for any type or brand fitted with USB 'b' , which includes your PSR-s775.

Good luck!


Hmmm...... Bad timing, I'm afraid. The PSR-s775 has already been packed up and shipped off for refund. Great idea though.

Thanks!


Bert
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Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2882002
08/21/19 09:36 AM
08/21/19 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by newbert


Hmmm...... Bad timing, I'm afraid. The PSR-s775 has already been packed up and shipped off for refund. Great idea though.

Thanks!



Oh dear. That's unfortunate. Just as a matter of interest, what was wrong with the PSRs775?


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: toddy] #2882059
08/21/19 12:35 PM
08/21/19 12:35 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Originally Posted by toddy
they do claim it will work for any type or brand fitted with USB 'b' , which includes your PSR-s775.

Good luck!

I haven’t read such a thing. And it will be wrong since many USB-MIDI devices demands a driver, and such a driver are generally only available for Windows and MacOS.

A USB Class Compliant restriction would be more expected. (The manual doesn’t even pretend it is possible).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 08/21/19 12:35 PM.

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Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: toddy] #2882061
08/21/19 12:38 PM
08/21/19 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
It appears the rumour EVC2017 read about is true. This means you can use an ordinary USB cable (an A to B, usually known as a printer cable) to connect the P3 to other devices such as keyboards and modules. This is new technology which expands the normal functioning of USB significantly.


I brought this feature up in the prior MIDI thread by newbert (http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...al-midi-question-or-two.html#Post2881144)--Dexibell brought some great news innovations with the release of their new Aquaviva OS (and of course the headroom built into the CPU/SOC of their hardware). Hopefully we see the traditional large manufacturers follow suit (or even better, take the initiative in introducing new features l meaningful features).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2882062
08/21/19 12:38 PM
08/21/19 12:38 PM
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Dexibell acting as a USB host is not a "rumour". It's something that Dexibell themselves have talked about. But you need a recent firmware update.

And -- as usual -- PianoManChuck has demonstrated it: https://youtu.be/hCIp7D3FsMY?t=98

(Though that's actually the inverted case as here: The module is the host and the keyboard is the peripheral. In this case the keyboard would be the host and the module the peripheral. But MIDI works both directions.)

Additionally the Roland BK module has a USB socket saying "COMPUTER (reception and transmission of MIDI data)".

So, a regular USB "printer cable" could hook those two devices together MIDI wise.

And then the usual "However...(!!!)": Then the audio would go from the BK to the P3 via a regular analog audio cable. Would this (those two connections together) possibly result in a ground loop producing mains hum?

The "legacy MIDI" has optoisolation supposedly, so if the BK optically isolates its MIDI ports then a USB-MIDI adapter could be a better option, if there's any ground loop issue.

As long as it's a "USB class compliant" (i.e. driverless) adapter the Dexibell should be happy with it. It doesn't know or care is it a full USB-MIDI keyboard or just an adapter pretending to be a one.

...I'd assume. And the usual "whatdoiknow". smile

But I'm sure Dexibell and Roland know their own products, so if we here don't know then they will.

Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: Frédéric L] #2882071
08/21/19 01:25 PM
08/21/19 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by toddy
they do claim it will work for any type or brand fitted with USB 'b' , which includes your PSR-s775.

Good luck!

I haven’t read such a thing. And it will be wrong since many USB-MIDI devices demands a driver, and such a driver are generally only available for Windows and MacOS.

A USB Class Compliant restriction would be more expected. (The manual doesn’t even pretend it is possible).


This is quoted from Dexibell's user guide:

Quote
You can connect other keyboards or modules from any brand
directly to the DEXIBELL USB “Memory” port and exchange MIDI data
without a computer and without using two MIDI cables.


....even so I would like to test it before buying equipment based on that claim, which is what I urged newbert to do if possible.

Last edited by toddy; 08/21/19 01:32 PM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: toddy] #2882081
08/21/19 02:10 PM
08/21/19 02:10 PM
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newbert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by newbert


Hmmm...... Bad timing, I'm afraid. The PSR-s775 has already been packed up and shipped off for refund. Great idea though.

Thanks!



Oh dear. That's unfortunate. Just as a matter of interest, what was wrong with the PSRs775?


It turns out that I absolutely hated the feel of the keys and action. And I'm usually not that picky.


Bert
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Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: toddy] #2882083
08/21/19 02:17 PM
08/21/19 02:17 PM
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newbert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by toddy
Before you actually buy the new module, you can test whether this new Dexibel-as-host system works by connecting your existing second keyboard up in the way described above using a simple USB printer cable. It will be interesting to hear if it works - they do claim it will work for any type or brand fitted with USB 'b' , which includes your PSR-s775.

Good luck!


Not that it matters anymore, since I've returned the Yamaha keyboard , but it turns out that the Dexibell (with AquaVIVO 4 OS and above) does support audio over USB MIDI.

I've connected my iPad via USB MIDI to Lightning connector and don't need an audio cable for the sound to be routed thru the Dexibell. Pretty slick! Now I'm exploring using Dexibell's "XMURE" app to use my iPad as an arranger module. So, I may not look for a BK-m7 after all and save some big $$$!!!! smile


Bert
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Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2882085
08/21/19 02:28 PM
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You'll save even more by not buying an even more expensive arranger module from Ketron. wink

But of course if you only need to save a little, then not buying the BK-7M is a perfectly valid option too.

Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: newbert] #2882088
08/21/19 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by newbert
Originally Posted by toddy
Before you actually buy the new module, you can test whether this new Dexibel-as-host system works by connecting your existing second keyboard up in the way described above using a simple USB printer cable. It will be interesting to hear if it works - they do claim it will work for any type or brand fitted with USB 'b' , which includes your PSR-s775.

Good luck!


Not that it matters anymore, since I've returned the Yamaha keyboard , but it turns out that the Dexibell (with AquaVIVO 4 OS and above) does support audio over USB MIDI.

I've connected my iPad via USB MIDI to Lightning connector and don't need an audio cable for the sound to be routed thru the Dexibell. Pretty slick! Now I'm exploring using Dexibell's "XMURE" app to use my iPad as an arranger module. So, I may not look for a BK-m7 after all and save some big $$$!!!! smile


Oh great that sounds pretty cool - it looks as if you're sorted. Where there's a will there's a way.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Two Last MIDI Questions (Hopefully).... [Re: clothearednincompo] #2882148
08/21/19 05:41 PM
08/21/19 05:41 PM
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newbert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
You'll save even more by not buying an even more expensive arranger module from Ketron. wink

But of course if you only need to save a little, then not buying the BK-7M is a perfectly valid option too.


Yeah - I got quoted a price for the Ketron and almost passed out!


Bert
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